Saturday, 6 August 2011

Tottenham Shooting - Community Response

When an alleged gun toting gangster, who tried to murder a police officer, is shot dead you might be forgiven for thinking that a decent law abiding community would support the action taken or at least await the outcome of the investigation. Apparently decent law abiding community does not apply to some of the residents of Tottenham and the usual hangers on who use any such incident as an opportunity to vilify the police.

Tonight about 120 people marched on Tottenham Police Station demanding justice. The dead man, Mark Duggan, was described as 'into things' but apparently he would never harm anyone, ergo he must have been murdered by the police. So a bunch of criminal thugs decide to set light to some police cars and run riot.

When are we going to hear from someone from the black community who will speak out against the drugs dealers, the stabbings, the shootings and the gangs in the black community instead of the silence, tacit support or usual cries of racist police.

When someone dared to highlight the fact that gun crime, stabbings and robberies are disproportionately committed by black offenders this was decried as low level racism by Diane Abbott MP. The same Diane Abbott who sent her son to private school as she was worried that he would be indoctrinated into gang culture if he went to her local state school.

White offenders are also involved in all these types of offences but in general the community does not support them and the press, MP's, community leaders et al line up to publicly show that they are anti crime and want to be seen to be tough on crime. The imbalance in offending rates and the future of many young black people is not going to change until the community start speaking out instead of spouting the usual racist diatribe. I am delighted to see that Diane Abbott has at last acknowledged the problem. When is someone going to have the balls to actually speak out against it?


  1. I hope all the trouble tonight ends as soon as possible and that no one else gets hurt.

    Before I start I'd like to say that if what we've heard so far is true then the officers who shot Mark Duggan appear to have had no choice.

    I hope this comment doesn't come across as criticising the officers on the ground (or the people making command decisions on the spot) as that's not my intention but I do see why local people jump to conclusions these days.

    There have been a few incidents in recent years where the police have made mistakes and people have been shot or killed.

    I can't see any sensible way this can be avoided but in the cases I can recall (Ian Tomlinson, Jean Charles de Menezes, the man who was shot in Forest Gate when he was suspected of producing ricin and, I think, a girl being hit by a car in Nottingham) the police spokesperson has always initially blamed the victim in the media and didn't wait for the outcome of the investigation and this has later inflamed public opinion.

    I'm sure in the vast majority of cases the police PR people do get it right initially but I wonder if things might work out better for the police in the long term if, in some controversial cases, the PR department also awaited the outcome of an investigation or waited a day or two before making comments that will offend the friends and family of what may be an innocent victim.


  2. I wouldn't be so sure about police's innocence.. The credible rumour from IPCC: There's at least one statement from the members of police that Mark Duggan was shot first, then his gun was fired to a police radio by police to set him up as the side at fault!.. The police mentioned is not injured, it was all set up.. Mark Duggan did not fire at the police. The IPCC has found multiple DNA on the handgun which does not belong to Mark Duggan. Lets see if police got it wrong again.. According to police statistics Met Police shot 14 people in the last 3 years and at 12 of these were they got it wrong.. and thats not even including Menezes!

  3. You seem to be unaware that there are conflicting reports about what happened to Duggan. One from the police, and one from an eye witness. After the recent history of the police from Menezes to Murdoch it's hardly surprising that nobody believes a word the police say, is it?

    The Duggan shooting shooting is only the catalyst, the problem is a much deeper one. Nobody trusts the police any more. They don't serve the community. Will the bullet in the radio turn out to be like the barrier that Menezes jumped. Who knows? I certainly wouldn't be confident that it won't. Good luck finding much mention of the eyewitness account in the press though; I guess all that corruption in the upper echelons of the police has it's positive side eh? One mismanagement of a phone hacking investigation for the one sided reporting of another police cock-up sounds like a decent deal to me.

  4. Just hope that it ends quickly, that the truth is seen whatever it may be and both parties supported. The thugs out there need to be disciplined. Prayers for the brave Police maintaining the thin blue line and protecting those caught up in this sordid riot.

  5. I don't know what happened and at this stage I'm not sure anyone, even their own senior management can be sure about the police's innocence.

    My thoughts were only about how the police PR response deal with things as maybe there are ways to improve the reaction in the immediate response.

  6. Re 00:27 - I don't think that even the mighty ICPC can turn around sms results that quickly. Think your rumour monger might be wrong!! Wait till the full facts are known before you give judgement. I'm sure the officers concerned did not set out to work that morning intending to kill someone.

  7. Last week San Francisco PD chased a dirtbag on foot who started shooting at the cops. This dirtbag was wanted for murder etc...
    The dirtbag ended up dying from a gunshot. The local dirtbags wanted to riot because the police had shot another poor "African American"...for no reason (getting shot at is not a reason to shoot back I guess)
    Anyway, after all the complaining, it turned out the idiot dirtbag had somehow shot himself in the head.
    My guess: Poor weapons training or he killed his self.

  8. My heart goes out to people who through no fault of their own have found themselves living close to one of these "communities". Usually they are stuck there as a result of not having the resources to get out in time.

  9. I think that you are correct in observing that this riot is an act of pure criminality. Moreover, it would seem to me to be indicative of a general antipathy towards the state and wider society amongst a certain section of what is termed the black 'community'. From whence does this spring? Years of multiculturalist pandering to their 'needs', so-called 'deprivation' and sense of negritude has nurtured an inveterate hostility towards Britain and to the English in particular. I will not be happy to read that this riot constitues some kind of uprising of the 'oppressed' against an uncaring and 'racist' society. It is a straightforward act of criminality and should be treated as such.

  10. Let me guess. Purely by coincidence there just happened to be no cctv cameras at that particular spot or they just happened to all be switched off for maintenance. Guess we’ll just have to believe anything the police tell us. Like when nobody at the police station knows what happened to the lost money members of the public hand in.

  11. It is the pebble which assumes a critical path which starts a chain reaction. In this way, we are heartbeats away from revolution with much worse to come.

    That police will be so fearful as to discard uniforms and denounce their own service, is one possible future.

  12. @ anonymous 0153 - You are an irresponsible moron. It is rumour, speculation and downright lies such as those in your post that help feed the frenzied anti police cretins that look forward to a good riot so they have a go at the police and do some looting and thieving as a bonus.
    I doubt if the IPCC have the results of DNA tests on the gun. I wouldn't be surprised at all if there is more than one lot of DNA on the gun. What does that prove?
    Your so called statistic that the police shot at least 12 of the last 14 in error is pure lies and fantasy.

    @ anonymous 0201 - I am well aware of a reported eyewitness who states they saw two people lying on the ground and then saw the police shoot one. If this witness exists they are incredibly irresponsible and stupid. There were three people in that taxi. The driver and two passengers. When the police stop a vehicle containing at least one armed person what generally happens is that all the occupants are extracted, put on the ground, secured and searched and then the vehicle. I suggest to you that the witness saw the driver and one passenger extracted and put on the ground and then Duggan decided he was going to shoot it out and got shot. That scenario may not have suited the eye witnesses bigotry.

    Is anyone going to have a go at answering the question? When are we going to hear someone from the black community speaking out against drug dealing, gun crime, robbery, stabbing and gangs in the black community?

    I was sickened by the politic claptrap coming out of the mouth of Tottenham MP, David Lammy. His whole focus was on appeasing the criminal elements within the community. What sort of community is there when the local MP has to suck up to pander to criminals to get elected?

  13. Policeman shot himself in the radio did he?
    I've heard it all now.
    Got to go now,I fancy looting a new plasma TV because a gangster piece of shit got rightfully killed

  14. Unfortunatly the world in which we live can be hugely unfair and violent, but hasn't that always been the case? the Police response in today's world is much more measured, considered and open to scrutiny than ever before but we the public expect their protection and sacrifice to keep us safe and yet they are villified if a mistake is made, too often the officers on the ground are placed in danger and have conflicting reactions, ie should they pull the trigger on the man pointing a gun at them or should they take a softer approach so as not to annoy the armchair experts who would have them crucified for choosing the former? admittedly not all cases are as clear cut as that but the officers concerned are vetted, chosen, trained, issued with weapons and then sent effectivly into battle all by US! we should support them and not use the clear power of hindsight to hang them. Lord knows if a 'not to shoot' decision is taken and it's the wrong one...many more people both innocent and guilty may end up paying the price. The decision to shoot or not must be taken in less than a heart beat and no matter the outcome that choice will haunt the officer for ever. We put the officers in that position... we should trust our own judgement in doing so by supporting them.
    And finally... "Tis better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" (attributed to various people including General Montgomery, Adolf Galland, Arthur Wellsley & JFK)

  15. Lex Ferenda - how dare you present your own high biassed version of the shooting as the truth. The fact remains that the Metropolitan police behaved disgracefully after the shooting of de Menezes and did their level best to besmirth his reputation. The Met have form for not being honest in such matters. It might be the case that the police did behave correctly but until the dust settles and other witnesses have had a chance to have their say, I shall keep an open mind on whether this is a righteous shooting or another attempt to cover up incompetence and criminality. I would suggest that you should too.

  16. Another law abiding citizen shot by police....NOT.

    You have a gun & armed response are involved, You get shot. Fact.

    Want to be a respected person - Use your head, not a gun.

    Is this a racist incident, NO CHANCE.

    Different people see respect in different ways. Being a low life scum bag comes with options genuine people don't have to worry about

    GABOS- Game aint based on sympathy. Is an expression used by those on the wrong side of the law.

    LABOS- Law aint based on sympathy. Is a better one.

    Mr Duggan found this out the hard way.

  17. @ Stephen

    Surely a policeman's word, including the fantasies of this remote police blogger, lex ferenda....yes, the one with zero knowledge of Latin....cannot be in any doubt?

    You are in danger of being banned from this blog a la Gadget, or having comments altered to favour the police perspective.

    Naturally, these are not honest prerogatives but together with support from bent colleagues, fabricated evidence and planted drugs/guns, they form basic kit for the UK policeman.

  18. There is a difference between some senior ranking police officers who bypass their own moral compass and operational sensibilities to become top-dog (or close) and those public order/firearms officers on the ground facing the rioting thugs and following the procedures covered in training.

    To 'police-bash' indiscriminately with regards to Murdoch etc is simply unfair.

  19. Is carrying a gun lawful? If not and you get shot, whose fault is it? To riot does not justify you. Wait for the result of the IPCC and see what happens. The police are not perfect and sometimes are not lawful but jumping to conclusions about a man who was obviously breaking the law is not an excuse to break the law. I am sorry for the family of this man but I am much more sorry for the families now homeless and without a business because of their so called cry for justice. Where is the justice for the innocents?

  20. the point is, there is an ongoing investigations into the evens of Thursday and the truth will out eventually. The rioting is indefensible and unacceptable. I do not believe that the resulting violence was due to the situation with Mark Duggan, it was a certain group within our society who decided to use the peaceful demonstration as a platform to get at the police. The community leaders must stop sending out the message that it is ok, because these people are oppressed etc. We dont need people trying to tell us the trouble makers came from elsewhere. We need them to say NO, it is NOT ok to trash your community, burn down local businesses and peoples homes.

  21. Bugger me, the trolls are out in force.
    Always surprises me (no, not really) how the spectre of every previous police shooting is wheeled out to support the argument that every single one of the 140,000 officers in the UK is a racist murdering thug.
    Any specifics about the "victim" of the shooting are disregarded as biased and besmirching the good character of an innocent person.
    We'll just ignore the vast rigamarole that is required to get armed officers involved in any planned operation let alone to get them to actually draw their weapons. Far easier to paint a picture of police cowboys pulling random vehicles and discharging guns for fun.

    As for the the nonsense about framing the "victim" - in broad daylight, in public, in front of a bunch of witnesses and the possibility of god knows how much CCTV, mobile phone footage, and surveillance? Yes, highly probable, not.

    Mixed DNA samples identified and separated and analysed in 2 days? Excellent - give me the name of the lab and I'll use that for my next job.


  22. Let Tottenham burn. It's a crime infested dump. The only people these idiot rioters are hurting are themselves. It's their community, let them live in the war zone they've now created.

  23. Whats the argumet - a man had a gun, and was shot. He fired at a police officer - unless you believe the police shoot themselves. Of course the family know nothing of any of his behaviour - a veritable saint. The inherited and repeated criminality of certain cultures (which is factually supported however much you bleat about racism) is seen in the 'community' as an acceptable life style.

    Why did he even have a gun? Forget who shot when - why aren't the family questioning that? You carry a gun - then you risk getting killed - surprise.

    Look at the current Channel 4 trailer for 'Summer in the City' - street crime mixed with music is shown as the aspirational norm for the citys uneducated and unemployable.

    When was the last Indian gang responsible for a killing? or Pakistani? Its down to the mentality of certain communities that simply accept criminality is part of who they are. Parentling skills are weak with absent fathers being common and the idea of a gang as 'family' and needing 'respect' brainwashed into individuals who can't think for themselves.

    The rioting is 99% nothing to do with a criminal getting shot, rather basic inner city tesnions when uneducated people see their lives for what they are and then get an 'opportunity' to indluge in anamalistic crime that is 2nd nature. And they would also like a stereo from the local store with a 5 finger looters dicount - the store may even run by a 'bruv' - but let that not stand in the way of enterprise.

  24. Anyone holding a GUN in this God forsaken society has to be aware of the ultimate consequence - well in advance. Police have only ONE course of ACTION to consider since Keith Blakelock - they ALSO have to think for all vulnerbale members of the PUBLIC too. I get sick and tired of all the wannabe Gurus who keep forgetting the stark facts of today's very scarey Society - and try to put their own spin on everything. Rioters at Tottenham are just - downright spinners and thieves - any excuse for an easy loophole for THEM:MAGGOTS. Their type spend a lifetime ruining many people's lives - regardless - and spin out of control for themselves - they are the new-age PIGS - who else?

  25. what angers me about all this is the press adress people in tottanham as the black comunity or the white comunity aint we as a people on earth over all this color thing by now?
    these paper gangstas who carry guns should expect no other outcome than a bullet in the head period what if he wasnt shot and a week later one of his drive bys or arguments ended in a kid or somone else killed by a stray bullet would be a diffrent story sorry for his family and that but imo one less gansta one less gun .

  26. Well Tottenham MP, David Lammy has stepped up to the mark.....NOT.
    In a disgusting example of political claptrap he claims that the rioting last night had nothing to do with the people of Tottenham and the vast majority of Tottenham residents were against it. He then went on to say that the police could have handled the situation better. Say nothing to suggest there are criminal elements within your community and blame the police for the rioting. Is that the way you have to behave to be elected in Tottenham Mr Lammy?
    I ask once more. When are we going to hear a member of the black community stand up and actually speak out against drug dealers, robbers, gangsters, gun toters and rioting thugs within the black community?

  27. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  28. @ anonymous 2038 - I rarely remove content, and I cannot alter comments as the boring MTG asserts, but racist abuse is not welcome here.

  29. So according to some of you there are no black anti-drug or anti-gun campaigners? No black police officers or public prosecutors? Do black school teachers and church leaders not condemn crime wholesale? The only members of the black community who support criminals are those who directly benefit i.e. criminals themselves. So really your issues are with the criminal community, leave the race out of it.

  30. ‘The Guardian understands that initial ballistics tests on a bullet, found lodged in a police radio worn by an officer during Thursday’s incident, suggested it was police issue – and therefore had not been fired by Duggan.’

    Guardian leads with the first suggestion of an execution scenario.

  31. It is not surprising that one more time it turned out that the police account of what actually happened turned out to be pure fantasy! It all matches with the key witnesses accounts that Mark Duggan was executed first then a moment later another shot which now tuned out to be a police-made-shot to the radio to claim that they were shot first! Sound like a cunning plan at the time but people of London had enough of lies and will not tolerate police murders anymore!

  32. @ Anonymous 2114 - I am aware that there are many black people working in the community in a number of ways to tackle some of the issues raised. What I am not hearing are community leaders and elected representatives speaking out against crime in their communities. The first step in tackling a problem is to acknowledge that there is a problem. All I hear from representatives such as Dianne Abbott and David Lammy are denials that the problem exists and accusations of racism against people stating facts. It is vital that the black community acknowledges the issues of young black people becoming involved in drug dealing, stabbing each other, gun crime etc etc. Until this happens the problem cannot be addressed effectively. I keep asking what sort of community do we have when elected representatives are afraid to speak out against criminals. The performance of the elected representatives and other community leaders is disgraceful.

    @ Anonymous 2157 - as I have already said, speculation such as that you have quoted from the Guardian (that well known pro police and unbiased rag) is wholly irresponsible, particularly taking account of last nights events. Even if it were a police bullet there are many scenarios other than an 'execution.' Any decent community and responsible press should await the outcome of the independent investigation before rioting or pandering to a readership of anti police bigots.

  33. Anonymous at 2236
    From the IPCC and reported by the Guardian -
    "Speculation that Mark Duggan was 'assassinated' in an execution style involving a number of shots to the head are categorically untrue. Following the formal identification of the body Mr Duggan's family know that this is not the case and I would ask anyone reporting this to be aware of its inaccuracy and its inflammatory nature."


  34. Speaking of bigotry...and we often do on this particular was the police blogger himself who commenced his post by smearing the deceased with an assertion that Mr Duggan "tried to murder a police officer".

    If Carling did bigotry, it would head hunt this uniformed rogue.

  35. Firstly it doesn't matter what colour you are, black white or any other thoughts go out to the poor people who live in the community and who the majority are normal law abiding people.

    You have also got to feel for the family of the Duggan as he was someones son too.

    There is no excuse for this absolute disregard for the authorities by rioting as it serves no purpose in our modern world and achieves nothing but misery. Take the student riots for example!!! Nothing has changed..

    I see that there is a lot of criticism against the police as ever but put yourself in the boots of the firearms officer......He made a judgement call and chose to discharge his weapon fatally taking away another human life.

    Do you really think he went into work that day thinking that 'I going to shoot someone today and this day could be the end of my career'

    I certainly would not like to be facing a real live firearm (which incidentally is still unlawful to in in possession of the last time I checked) and have to make that call, but he will also have to live with that decision for the rest of his life.

    No doubt he has already been suspended from duty pending the findings from the IPCC do you think he is feeling as these incidents affect everybody involved.

    I feel disgusted looking at the images in the media and as a public order officer myself think this is a tough situation to deal with in normal circumstances.....

    This is from the BBC news site:

    Police say 26 police officers were injured in the riots and two remain in hospital. In total, fifty-five arrests have been made.

    Local MP David Lammy tells reporters the community has "had the heart ripped out of it" by "mindless, mindless people", many of whom he says had come from outside Tottenham to cause trouble.
    Really? Come on! What did they do call their mates from all the other suburbs....Oh pop down to Tottenham its a right laugh!! Do me a favour...

  36. Last night was just a beginning.

    Blood ah gonna run if justice noh come.

    Justice for Smiley. Justice for Barry.


  37. It has since been revealed that the bullet lodged in the radio was probably a Met bullet.

    To the public this was a killing in the long list of killings by the police against people who aren't white - like Charles de Menezes.

    Another example of Police corruption in insular units like CO19.

  38. @ Anonymous 2359 - Barry who? Ballywho (Geddit!)

    @ Anonymous 0026 - 'probably a Met bullet.' Good enough for me. Let's have another riot. Jean Charles de Menezes was white. Cretin.

  39. Thinking Policeman. That's a joke. The police said Mark Duggan was shot after he shot at police. This is lies.
    You said Mark Duggan was a ganster and he shot police. You just repeat police lies.
    Your blog is racist crap.
    Were you in Tottenham last night hiding like the rest of the pigs? You are just a racist pig like the rest of them.

  40. @ Anonymous 0848 - The police have not given any public account as to what happened regarding this shooting. Once the incident took place the investigation was immediately passed to the IPCC. It is for the IPCC to give public statements regarding the events. It would be completely wrong for the police to undermine the investigation by making public statements now. It was the IPCC who stated that Duggan had been killed in an exchange of gunfire. I don't know what their investigation has uncovered so far.

    I said Mark Duggan was an 'alleged' gun toting gangster. This is the standard journalists get out word. It means other people are saying that and I am repeating it. The police have not made this statement.

    I don't want young black people to fail the education system. I don't want young black people falling into gangs, street robberies, drug dealing, gun crime etc. and then rioting on the streets when one of their alleged gangsters is shot by the police.
    I want young black people to have a decent education.
    I want young black people to have hopes and aspirations and lead useful and fulfilled lives instead of wasting them.
    I want young black people to have proper decent jobs.
    I want young black people to be part of a decent law abiding community and not the arse end of it.
    I want the current disgraceful black community representatives to grow some balls and start the process by speaking out against the criminals in the black community.

    If that makes me a racist then so be it.

  41. From a policeman who made public statements to smear Mr Mark exactly the same way he smeared and defamed Smiley Culture, could any right minded citizen place an atom of reliance in his claims to feel nothing but benevolence and goodwill towards black people?

  42. Jesus Christ! I have just read the article in The Guardian by that pathetic waste of space, Tottenham MP, David Lammy.
    What does he have to say on the subject? That this riot didn't happen in Kensington or Richmond, so we need to throw more money into poor areas with high unemployment such as Tottenham. The police have got to do even more to try and rebuild relations with the community.
    The rioters involved are not part of the community. They are some sort of nefarious underworld that no one has any responsibility for. The police response to the riots is criticised as too slow and inadequate.

    If 99% of Tottenham residents are decent, law abiding and supportive of community order Mr Lammy, why are you so afraid to speak out against the rioters? Your seat should still be safe.

    When are you going to grow some gonads Mr Lammy and spell out that there is no place in the black community for rioters, drug dealers, gangsters, gun criminals and robbers? When are you going to urge the black community to reject and expose these people? When are you going to start suggesting that the black community takes some responsibility for itself instead of demanding everyone else should and blaming everyone else? Is it because that if you do that your seat will be at risk? Sometimes decent leaders need to take a leap that puts their job at risk. That is what real leadership is about. Sometimes sadly lacking in the police by the way.

  43. The Met said Mark Duggan had a gun, Jean charles de Menezes, had a bomb and Ian Tomlingson died of natural causes. Put out thier statement to the media who bought it. Then later, cctv and camera phone footage Exposed the falsehood.

    There is a small criminal element exploiting the protest to riot and loot. But we shouldn't allow politicians, the police, and the media to use that dismiss the real anger that many people feel. The police are not above the law.

    RODNEY KING Remember That one in The USA and what happened. LA Burned. Lets not have that in London.

  44. @ Lex Ferenda

    Jean Charles De Menezes what Brazilian not white. But of Mixed Portugese, Afrcan, and Native Amerindian Ehnicity.

    Brazilians are an admixture of races.

    The unfortunate Mr Menezes what not white.

  45. It is only a suggestion....but before the first reports of sniper casualties, perhaps lex ferenda might redeem his besmirching and getting off his chair and taking his peace and goodwill messages down to the carnage areas.

  46. cheep laptops for sale only bin dropped once
    meet me on the corner of holloway road 20 quid a real bargain!!! should have a few i phones by tomorrow nite just waiting on a couple of youths to smash the shop window and the will be on sale asap!!

  47. Don't quite understand looting whilst rioting. At what point do you stop standing up for what you believe in and decide life would be better with a free radio alarm clock?

  48. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  49. After all that stress in Tottenham I bet Mark Duggan is rollin in his coffin right now

  50. @ Anon 14:25

    who wrote:

    "Typical Britain.

    You could shoot a white polar bear when it goes on a rampage...

    ...but you can't shoot a gorilla when they run around Tottenham."

    Stratch the surface and no surprise. What do you find. The racism. The last refuge of the ignorant.

    Please say something construction lets not do the troll thing with bigoted insult. Show some education and insight.

  51. dont you u mean the people of north london need to show some education and insight

  52. The last refuge of the ignorant......
    i was there man in the nam .........

    Tottenham !!!

  53. If police procedures are anything like the military ones, one of the first actions the AFOs would have taken would be to 'make safe' Mr Duggan's pistol. This will have involved unloading it and, if an automatic, removing any round from the chamber. They will have therefore needed to touch it and they will have left traces of their clothing, skin or sweat on the gun. Without it being a great conspiracy.

    However, even if this turns out to be a wholly unjustified shooting (and remember, the operation under Op Trident - so Duggan was suspected of being involved in armed black-on-black violence - he wasn't just trying to 'stick it to the man', or whatever the hip phrase is nowadays), none of that justifies the riots and violence towards the remainder of the community.

  54. " Anonymous said...
    dont you u mean the people of north london need to show some education and insight

    08 August, 2011 15:07"

    Yes Thoughs the were commiting criminal damage and looting, too need to show some education and insight.

    But please stand corrected my comment to aimed at the the anon who made the white polar bear and implied black gorilla. Remark.

    It just wasn't helpful to the debate. If he/she had something meaningfull to say comments like that don't show it.

  55. @ Anonymous 1425 - As I said earlier, I rarely remove posts but yours has gone. Racist abuse is not welcome here.

    @ Anonymous 1226 - I am well aware that Jean Charles de Menezes was from Brazil. Many Brazilians are still wholly white European ethnicity. Many have interbred with other races and will be mixed race. The accusation was that the police had shot another innocent black man. Google Mr de Menezes and you will find a picture of a white man. 10% African and 10% Amerindian is irrelevant to the point.

    @ Anonymous 1211 - I think that you will find it was not the Met but the IPCC who suggested Duggan had a gun and there is no reason to believe he did not. The police thought Jean Charles de Menezes had a bomb. Yes it was a surveillance cock up but a jury decided the police officers who carried out the actual shooting acted lawfully. The Met never said Ian Thomlinson died of natural causes. The pathologist that carried out his first post mortem did. A police officer is rightly going to stand trial. The white community are not rioting about that case though and are waiting for the justice system to take it's course.

    No one is suggesting the police are above the law and I have said in many previous cases that if any officer is guilty of any offence then I am happy to let a jury consider it and decide. In most cases though the police are exonerated.

    I think we are agreed that the current rioting and looting does nothing to improve the reputation and standing of the black community. It is music to the ears of the BNP, EDL etc. They will be feasting on this and gain increased support for years.

    Still no sign of David Lamentable MP growing any gonads.....

  56. @anonymous at 12.16. If you take a look at any picture of Charles de Meneze you will see that he is quite clearly white. Yes he may be Brazilian, yes Brazil may be known for being diverse and Hispanic/Black/White but Charles de Meneze, as an individual, was white.

  57. I suggest it is time to do an Inspector Gadget and change the wording of your original post.

    Substitute 'back seat taxi passenger posing no threat' for 'gun toting gangster, who tried to murder a police officer'.
    Oh wait, there goes the killing excuse....back to the drawing board.

  58. When an alleged gun toting gangster, who tried to murder a police officer, is shot dead you might be forgiven for thinking that a decent law abiding community would support the action taken.

    At least your blog says "The Ramblings of a Police Inspector" - Thats about the only 6 words of truth printed here.

  59. Well I have just seen on TV another waste of space, so called black community leader, Lee Jasper. All this rioting is entirely the fault of the police. We haven't appointed a family liaison officer. We haven't explained why Mark Duggan didn't have the gun shot out of his hand instead of being shot in the chest. Senior officers should have come to Tottenham to explain to the family what happened. Then he starts to question why the police are protecting the West End and the affluent white areas and leaving the black Boroughs to burn.
    Not one word of denouncing the criminal scum who are out looting Curry's and burning down their community.

    If these are your community leaders there is little hope that anytime soon there is going to be any change in the disproportionate numbers of young black people becoming involved in gangs, drugs, gun crime and robberies etc.

    And David Lamentable, MP for Tottenham, has joined in with the criticism of the policing of the riots. Clearly you don't win votes in Tottenham by denouncing criminals. Disgraceful.

  60. Watching BBC News and some liberal handwringer is blaming the “riots” on the social inequality that the black community feel as they sometimes live in close proximity to more wealthy areas !! Millions of pounds of taxpayers money has been poured into the poor areas and for what? They still play the victim and make excuses for their communities criminal behaviour.

    Personally I think that the years of treating some ethnic communities as special cases and differently from the rest of the population is now finally coming home to roost. The communities now act like spoilt badly behaved children when they don’t get their own way, or when they think they are not being treated with enough “respect” by the govenment or police.

    Would we as a country expect the police to pander to the white community in the same manner if a white gangster had been shot in the same circumstances? Would we expect the police to be meeting with white “community” leaders to quench any percived mounting tension and anger felt by the white community? NO, so why do we feel the need to do the same for the black community?

    These communities should now be collectivly punished for their actions, No Brixtion festival, no Notting Hill carnival, large police presence on the street in their communities with an emphasis on stop and search and the full force of the law directed at them if they step out of line, it’s time to take the kid gloves off and quit the softly softly approach, it doesnt work.

  61. Haven't read all the comments. But even if Duggan was shot simply because the officer didn't like his face would that begin to justify widespread robbery, looting and arson? Crimes committed against the local innocent population.

    The fact is these people just don't want to be policed. They want to pursue their feckless hopeless violent lifestyles undisturbed by the forces of law and order.And at our expense.

  62. @ Anonymous 2102 - A slightly different perspective. I am a big fan of the Supernanny school of dealing with naughty children.

    I think taking their toys away and putting them on the naughty step for a few months is the least we should consider.

    Someone needs to take charge and, as I keep repeating, the so called community leaders and David Lamentable MP are clearly not up to the task.

  63. "If these are your community leaders there is little hope that anytime soon there is going to be any change in the disproportionate numbers of young black people becoming involved in gangs, drugs, gun crime and robberies etc."

    Far easier to explain a three dimensional world to a two dimensional man than convince the bigot his monopoly on correct views is imagined.

  64. Far easier to explain a three dimensional world to a two dimensional man than convince the bigot his monopoly on correct views is imagined.

    As opposed, melv, to simply blaming the police for all the ills of society.
    Perhaps you could offer a critique of the problems that beset Tottenham, or are you happy to bleat "It's the corrupt, racist police, innit" albeit dressed in more flowery prose.


  65. All this is nothing new – housing policy through the 50s and 60s deliberately kept ethnic minorities together and that combined with cultural inadequacies of some of those communities simply perpetuated the behaviour we see today. Riots may catch the headlines but the underlying criminality has always been constant.

    Why no riots after the weekly stabbing to death of innocent kids on the street by gangs? Yet someone with a gun needs ‘justice’ .

    Why don’t you see this in other identifiable communities - do you remember the Indian riots? No because there weren’t any despite that being a larger community. Where one community espouses family, cultural values and education leading to valuable careers and status in society another eschews the exact same. Why?

    There is virtually no representation of some communities in professional life and those representatives that are put up as spokesmen often come across as bitter angry people who see the outside world as the problem. With zero insight into where their community is coming from and what is happening, and has always happened, nothing will change.

    If this tiny percentage of the population – we are talking ~4% - can’t stop themselves then the remaining 96% need to impose themselves on these communities. How? – not with more policing, as that is meaningless, but with education and training that is disproportionately extensive compared to other communities. Bottom line – educated people don’t riot, kill, join gangs.

    Yes, many won’t want to see a penny spent on what are seen as super scum who want to kill each other and burn their own towns but its the same as the prison question – you need to educate to eradicate the inherited mentality or it will continue as a life style. There isn’t an alternative.

    This is a tiny and very stupid minority creating headlines – despite how big it all appears in the news.


    UK Government and monarchy lost all legitimacy
    The Citizens of Britain had enough – “Queen and PM must go”
    Popular uprisings in Britain has begun, and like everywhere in the world, the first response of the government is to try and crush the revolt by force. In the case of the UK, using horses, helicopters, riot police and other aggressive methods.
    Crushing democracy is unacceptable – the Queen and Cameron has lost all legitimacy and must go!
    Everyone wakes up asking “WHY?” after witnessing London, Birmingham, Manchester, Nottingham, Liverpool and all other major metropolitan areas being flooded with anarchy.
    Here is WHY:
    Besides being a respectless society that is out of touch with the need of poorer communities, raising VAT to unacceptable levels of 20% and being a brutal police state discriminating against foreigners, africans and muslims, we have triggered something far more sensitive through our own example.
    The government has led by example. Not too long ago, we have all heard the experts who think they rule the world barking out orders that “Mubarak must go” – “Ben Ali must go” – “Gaddafi must go” when these leaders tried to restore order in their countries.
    We have then moved to the point of demonstrating to our citizens that we as a society has NO values and NO respect by bombing schools, hospitals, television stations etc. in Libya to join ruthless rebels in overthrowing a government trying to restore peace and order.
    The old saying “what goes around comes around” has certainly not failed Britain!
    The very same “winds of change” is now blowing in Britain, these winds of change we thought would enable us to colonise more places in the modern day and age through our ruthless behaviour and false media. Now, the same tools used across the globe like twitter and other technologies are being used in Britain to support popular uprisings.
    Forget all the “WHY’s” – what is next?
    A one world government is on the horizon – and it’s time for the queen and the government to pack their bags and GO – yes, GO to wherever they suggested Mubarrak and Gaddafi should go..
    Britain finally has a real opportunity to be free from the oppressors who ruled for so long with an iron fist covered in satin!
    Revolution is here to stay..
    The revolution started with Tottenham and Brixton standing up against POLICE BRUTALITY, and quickly spread to Croydon, Clapham, Barking, East Ham, Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester and developed into total anarchy.

  67. "Britain finally has a real opportunity to be free from the oppressors who ruled for so long with an iron fist covered in satin!
    Revolution is here to stay."

    You're a little bit I'll arent you..

    p.s. I got dem trainers you wanted.

  68. "who tried to murder a police officer"
    the gun was never fired at the police you cock

  69. From my i-phone somewhere in Brixton

    @ Matt Goodspeed - I wondered when some wanker would pop up spouting about the start of the revolution.
    This is about a small minority of mindless thieving thugs going out looting because they think they can steal and there will be no consequences.
    In our democratic democracy you will find that the majority of people want peace and quiet and their normal lives resumed and they want the police to quell this lawless minority.
    If you think this country has any resemblance to the dictatorships in the Middle East you are insane. So just bugger off.

    @ anonymous 1928 - If he pointed the gun at the police and they shot him first, I am still right. COCK!

  70. To bad we didn't have any Korean store owners heading to the roofs with rifles.

  71. Lex
    (if this is on twice then apols as clicking on pst doesn't seem to do anything)
    I work in a different bit of the job and quite frankly a lot of the posts here show that people who are anti-police really don't want to listen and whilst I applaud your blog, maybe is the raised blood pressure worth it? - they simply don't want to listen - everything we do is wrong, the police version of events is always a fit up (if you had permanent helmet mounted CCTV it would be doctored), we are worse than the criminals etc etc. Basically aside from the crims like the chap above gloating about the police hiding (and those more serious crims who have a personal interest in trying to undermine police credibility in anticipation of the next time they are before a court) some people are simply anti-police at a philosophical level - they see us all as bullies etc and tut-tut as police cars go by with PWE on - with an air of who do they think they are in their uniforms, swaggering about, (I've heard it vocalised). Much of what the police does is inimical to the way they wish to lead their lives, be that taking drugs, getting boozed up and playing loud music to 5 in the morning or driving round whilst uninsured (or even none of these and they simply don't like people in uniform/authority)- 'cos playing by the rules is for staight-goers and sheeple. The kind of person who can write "but together with support from bent colleagues, fabricated evidence and planted drugs/guns, they form basic kit for the UK policeman." when writing of 150,000 plus men and women is really not going to be convinced by anything you or I say - including that we do our jobs honestly and to the best of our ability (why anyone would need to plant drugs when we all know that parts of the country are awash with them is interesting). I've been accused in the past of not being genuine because I've come on and explained how the job is done - what folk want is a slavvering, threatening bully who comes on and promises to nick them as that fits their own prejudices of thick coppers/pigs - equally some people's ire is raised by the very attempt to be reasonable or vaguely intellectual (very vahue in my case!)as to them thats more insidious than the hard face of the police - speaking as a former member of Amnesty Intl's police section, Guardian reader, Labour voter and someone who has had many run ins with racists and anti-semites on the web - have more or less given up with them too, as another group with a world view so set, that its like trying to rationally argue a paedophile into seeing that abusing children is wrong. I've spent so much time in the past arguing/discussing these kind of matters and frankly we go to work with a clear conscience, they won't change their views and I'd rather spend the time with my son or doing something useful like getting more sleep so I am better placed to help put criminals before the courts - I sometimes almost have more time for the crims (well the ones I deal with) rather than those who are banging on about sheeple and coming at it from that Arthur Koestler "I once hit a man for looking like a policeman" angle - as at least the crims know you are doing your job and they are doing theirs and don't need to come up with all this 'you are all liars' etc stuff all the time(since they know what they did hence why there so many guilty pleas)- we even had the defendants in the dock and defence counsel ask to get in on the typical big trial sweep on sentences - so they know its a game that on that occasion they lost on. Anyway enough rabbiting on!

  72. Actually though I resolved to avoid posting, but sorry - Matt Goodspeed and the Tooting Popular Front demanding that the Queen must go has brightened up my day (thanks Matt) and made me laugh anyway - funniest thing I have read in ages and nice to see he has a soft spot for Ghadaffi too. Quite how looting mobile phones is democracy (or burning shops and people's homes) I'm unsure, nor since vast majority of the population have not joined in, not sure how the govt or Queen have lost legitimacy. But nonetheless. I can only imagine Matt screaming at the telly when seeing the clean up groups or the Turkish and Pakistani folk defending their shops: "misguided dupes and running dogs of capitalism - you are undermining the people's legitimate aspirations to overturn the paper tiger facsists in the false parliament of Westminster - Viva la revolucion -Guzman lives!"
    Not saying that it won't happen again - but really - "the revolution is here to stay" - well maybe when they want that new PS3 game or next years mobile but for now I imagine they're all home watching reality TV on that new 50" plasma. I do of course realise that hard core anarchists do relish bloodshed and violence as necessary steps on the way but most people want a quiet life, so soon enough they can all go back to imagining the revolution, just like the BNP types can get back to their race war wet dreams.

  73. @ Anonymous 2151 and 2216 - I generally post as a bit of a cathartic exercise but I do actually quite like seeing what different views there are out there.
    If you read the Gadget blog you will know they ban anyone from commenting if they don't like what they have to say. For me that wouldn't work as you just end up with a group of like minded people commenting.
    I have only banned one person from this blog and since then have allowed their comments to slip through.
    I do think we should listen to other peoples views and consider them no matter how different or mad they should be. I think one benefit of this also is that the public who read this blog see what we are up against.
    Occasionally, I will try and persuade someone that perhaps their view is prejudiced and if I can even do a very small bit to improve relations I think that is worthwhile.
    I do sometimes get a little terse with some idiots, Matt Goodspeed above is a good example. But, as I said, I think it is good for readers to get an insight into some of the odd people that make up our society. People we come into contact with every day.

  74. Lex
    Of course each to his own - I've spent so much time in the past trying to put across a balanced reasonable viewpoint on policing matters and probably have ended up a middle of the road extremist -with high BP - I've got pretty moderate views (have often been the prisoners friend in Custody!) but would shoot those who disagree with me (not really of course). It does eat into ones time and for me other things are more cathartic to enable me to relax from a day of interfering in other peoples lives - I think to be a police officer or similar jobs you have to be natural interferer/intervenor - been involved in incidents on trains where people are acting out their domestic disputes (throwing food and punches)in front of families and usually those who step in to help are almost always folk like firemen or squaddies or nurses or similar. The reason for some people's resentment of the police is that they of course resent any such interference (symptomised as in Liverpool where the police are called bizzies - ie busy bodies)- so that the only person who often can get away with telling someone that throwing that bag of chips on the ground etc is an off duty bobby - as a normal member of the public will inevitably get "what the f+*^s it got to do with you" - having a warrant card deflects that slightly but even then increasingly less. We need to go back to being a society where its not just the job of the OB to intervene - thats why the action of the Sikh folk in Southall for instance was encouraging as its people getting involved (and it stopped trouble there in its tracks). I'll end (as otherwise am undermining my resolution to stop posting!) with a great quote today from the folk today in Manchester who were posting comments on post-its at the Arndale (especially for those like Citizen Matt surronded by his Che posters) - "you rioted but we prevailed"

  75. Um... Just interested if you'll offer an apology if it turns out that the police did shoot an unarmed man?

    I fail to see how anyone can deny that this shooting is the spark that set off the fire.

    If you seriously cannot see why people might become so enraged to the point of rioting, I'd challange you to name ONE armed police officer who has ever been charged with wrong doing....
    (Real or not there is a perception amongst many people in the UK that armed police units are above the law. Their unwritten policy of all out strikes should any member ever be charged with wrong doing is at least partially to blame for all this violence)

  76. @ Anonymous 1822 - 'name one police officer who has ever been charged with wrong doing'
    What you don't seem to understand is that EVERY time the police discharge a shot, whether anyone is killed or injured, the Independent Police Complaints Authority are called in and attend to investigate. The officers involved, the managers who authorised the officers deployment are detained and have to give accounts for their actions. A decision an officer had a split second to make is pored over and analysed for months and the IPCC eventually complete a file of evidence. If the IPCC have any cause to believe any officer may have committed an offence the file of evidence is sent to the Crown Prosecution Service to consider charges. In any case where someone has died as a result of a police shooting a Coroners inquest is held in the presence of a jury. All the evidence is presented and the jury have the option of declaring an unlawful killing if they feel that is the case.
    The reason you may not be able to recall any officer being charged is because firearms officers are well trained and do not go around shooting innocent people. The last case I can recall officers being charged was the case of Harry Stanley. In the end the officers account was proven to be correct and they were acquitted.
    I keep reading allegations that officers are shooting innocent people every five minutes. I suppose if you say it enough gullible people will start believing it. Even in the case of Jean Charles Demenezes who was absolutely innocent, the officers who carried out the shooting were found by a jury to have acted lawfully. The fault for his death lay elsewhere.

    If it does ever transpire that the shooting of Mark Duggan was unjustified the police will apologise and the officer responsible will have to answer to a Court. This is the way the justice system works not by rioting mobs fired up and manipulated by anarchist agitators.

  77. I think the Inquest stats speak for themselves (Inquest hardly being a pro-police body) - number of fatal police shootings 2009 to 2011 incl the week before last - 5 - one of those being of a person classified as from an ethnic minority - ie Mark Duggan - thats not the epidemic that some people portray (not sure if they incl Raoul Moat in that). As to shooting an unarmed man - of course no matter what the IPCC say, people so inclined will claim it all a fit up with the Trident (or is it C019) officers having a throw down gun that they have planted - but of course S3 Criminal Law ACt 1967 etc does not require that he had to have a gun in his hand - if they genuinely thought he was going for a firearm (indeed even if in fact if there was not one there) then in terms of Beckford v R (1988)on appeal "Whether the plea is self-defence or defence of another, if the defendant (in this case a police officer who shot a suspect who turned out to be unarmed) may have been labouring under a mistake as to facts, he must be judged according to his mistaken belief of the facts: that is so whether the mistake was, on an objective view, a reasonable mistake or not." Unless it turns out to be duff intell, they were obviously following him in the first place for a reason as they don't just do random hard stops on minicabs. Actually so far from it being common, I know of numerous accounts from firearms officer where they had every grounds to fire and didn't (and i don't believe that there is some grand plan to spread false stories of such to others working in the same job)

  78. PS - from todays Guardian ref the last few days in the courts - aside from the expected quotes from defence lawyers complaining about the number of deferements to CC and remands there was one stand out story that the Guardian reported in depth. A mother whose late teens son (an ex Army cadet - normally that in itself would be enough to evoke no sympathy in that paper I would think) was sent down for 4 months for a public order offence after he said to police officer "I'd smash you if you took your uniform off". The mother was disgusted at the sentence and said that he had got a harsher sentence due to the riots - no sh*& Sherlock!
    But the bit that really got me was her follow up that "if this wasn't the riot he wouldn't even have got a caution" Kerchinng. That probably sums up at least one aspect of this whole mess - that someone thinks that normally threatening a police officer not only doesn't merit court action but in fact doesn't merit any sanction at all. The UK is probably unique in Europe at least in that people should have an expectation that you can speak thus to a police officer and expect to get away with _ wouldn't work in Spain or France or even much more liberal countries like Sweden and Norway
    Ironically in a way the likes of the Sun and others have perhaps contributed to some of the problems with the constant stories of soft courts and judges - cos i imagine that a lot fo the people who are now remanded etc are genuinely surprised that they have been trated thus and feel that its somehow "unfair". But really of course what did they expect - if the sentences dished out for something like this are not frankly (speaking as a bit of a liberal) Draconian what signal would that send out - riot and steal and get Community Service? Being a softy I've no desire to see peoples (with no previous record) futures blighted with a criminal record but I don't see what else can be done

    And one other point - re the tactics - again per the Guardian it was when the Met deployed the Jenkels and started driving them at the rioters that the crowds started to break up etc - Merseyside Police did this in 1985 with Landrovers (aka Jeeps)during the Toxteth Riots to avoid a repeat of the stand there and get bottled days of 1981 - why as ever do things have to be re-invented when actually its all already there(and someone's probably got a performance bonus for coming up with the idea!)

    I know btw that I am of course still posting here when I commented beofre about the utility of such - byt like an addict I am weaning myself off gradually and have stopped going to Youtube etc and engaging in futile discussions with the vile venomous racists that populate many of the boards there and who last weeks events have brought crawling out from under their stones (as well as with all the ACAB types who also rub shoulders with them there)

  79. @ Anonymous 2149 - all makes sense to me, so you are very welcome to carry on posting here. The liberal hand wringers, who can only see these people need help, (and they do) have no conception of the basic priciple of parenting and nurturing children; setting boundaries and consequences. Treating children as adults may be hip and happening in the liberal theorists bible but children are children. Many of the older yobs involved in all this are just children in adults bodies. I hope we see a reintroduction of boundaries and consequences, at home, in the community, in schools and in the justice system. Helping deal with the problems goes alongside this. Just watch an episode of Supernanny. It's a very simple but effective principle. Everyone needs to take responsibility and stop blaming everyone else.

  80. Well as much as this whole incident has been a tragedy for the many people who have lost their homes and businesses (and of course immeasurably more so for those whose family members died at the hands of some of the rioters) I do hope that something good can come out of it in that communities will start to stand up more to those within their midst who just want to make trouble. The actions of many in the last few days both young and old, black white and brown in clearing up, defending their communities from rioters, rebuking those involved (and as well as turning them in - in some cases their own family members) give the lie to those on both the extreme left and right who want to paint it in radical terms that suit their agendas. Its also done a lot for the image of British Muslims too as Mr Jahan's words and dignity at a time of tragedy will stay long in the memory of many and do show many of the virtues of that sector of society (family based with a strong sense of community etc)that have been overlooked or belittled by both those on the left and the right - i've always thought it ironic that in many ways a lot of their (Muslim) views on social issues are probably pretty near those of the average Daily Mail reader!). Maybe this is the time for the vast bulk of people who want to live their lives in peace to take back the argument from the extremists and re-balance matters away from the rights of the offender to the rights of the victim and the law abiding (maybe pie in the sky but worth at least trying for). I also think that the actions of the courts will leave those people inclined to get involved in any future trouble - when they need need a new pair of trainers or a bigger plasma TV in no doubt that rioting and looting is not a risk free activity and of course hopefully (people with scrambled egg on their hats hoepfully playing their role too) if it happens again the police response will be much more immediately robust - its clear that that is what the vast majority of the British public want.

  81. Lex
    In order to disagree with you at least about something your initial comment ref "highlight the fact that gun crime, stabbings and robberies are disproportionately committed by black offenders" - that may well be true of London and the MPD but up here we have firearms discharges at least every 3-4 days (ok a lot are people strafinbg bricks and mortar)and the vast majority of the offenders up here are white - Toxteth notwithstanding

  82. Turns out that there is another photo of him with 2 other gangster members that are currently doing time for murder.

    And an accomplice was recently convicted of giving Mark the gun.

    Could it possibly be that Duggan is not the innocent soul as portrayed by his family?

  83. Yes Jess, I have been watching the truth slowly drip out into the public arena.

    I am sure there are still some deranged commentators out there who still believe that an innocent, unarmed, decent family man was executed by police for no other reason than the police fancied executing a black man that day.

    I did promise to apologise if it turned out the police had shot an innocent unarmed man. There will not be any apology coming any time soon.