The story reminded me of a drugs raid I was on many, many years ago. I was young, naive and inexperienced. Instead of handcuffing the suspect, I let them wander around. We were conversing while other colleagues were searching the house and all seemed well. The next thing I know they have managed to grab a knife and are slashing at their wrists. Fortunately, I managed to get the situation under control without serious injury to the suspect or harm to my colleagues. A short time later we found a substantial quantity of Ecstasy. The suspect knew we were going to find it and that he was going to go to prison for a few years. He was an addict himself and decided that he didn't want to go to prison and attempted suicide. I was fortunate. The suspect was white. He wasn't seriously injured and I was able to learn a lesson from this experience without it being taken further..
Smiley Culture had a couple of minor hits in the 80's. He has led a lifestyle since that begs some questions. He claimed to have made money investing in third world gold and diamond mining. In September 2010 he was charged with conspiracy to supply cocaine and was due in Court for trial on the 21st March 2011.
I don't know what further evidence the Met had to execute a search warrant at Smileys £1million house on the 15th March, but a magistrate was obviously satisfied there were grounds to do so. An hour and a half after the Met arrived at his address, the officers allowed Smiley to go to the kitchen to make some tea. In the kitchen he took a knife and stuck it in his chest, piercing his heart.
The family don't believe this and are calling for a public inquiry into his death. I have no doubt that the Met are not responsible for his death. I feel sorry for the officers involved in this search. They are going to be dragged through the mill with an investigation by the IPCC and at the inquest by legally aided barristers, representing the family. All sorts of nonsense, with no basis, will be alleged. I hope they get through it unscathed.
"I hope they get through it unscathed."
ReplyDeleteHow reassuring to be provided with insider knowledge of police innocence and the certainty of their absolution. Oh, wait - it's just a hope then?
MTG
Bullshit article and you know it. He never stabbed himself the first time he was arrested, he never stabbed himself so why now?
ReplyDeleteThe British police are notorius for the murder of Black men.
Listen to his family speak and rewrite your silly, biased article again.
God isn't sleeping, justice will prevail, the murdering poilice officers will be brought to justice.
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/13375130
Well you are an officer of the so called British law, so you would say that. However, your complete post is to get across the suspect 'was white' we all know where this is heading ' a racist murder' but wait, I am also white and do not believe for one moment Murdochs helping hand through the SUN considering he is in deep shit with the with phone hacking and the MET are protecting his butt. 'Went for a cup of tea ' farce. I know very well the moment an officer has you in his sight, in your home, thats where you stay, in his sight and lets be clear Smiley is dead and we have the word of four officers, give me a break. This is a crime so do not try and turn it into a 'racist act '
ReplyDeleteNiki
Quote:
ReplyDeleteAn hour and a half after the Met arrived at his address, the officers allowed Smiley to go to the kitchen to make some tea. In the kitchen he took a knife and stuck it in his chest, piercing his heart.Unqoute
Can you hear yourself? you sound like a parrot. What were they doing for an hour and a half? I'll tell you what they were doing, trying to work out some cock and bull story how they were going to talk their way out of this one and for the record I am also white.
Dave.
First -Smiley's death is a tragedy - Police Officer was a cool record.
ReplyDeleteOdd isn't it though how the same voices that call for "justice" also shout about the "murdering police".
It suggests a tiny bit of bias and a preconceived idea about the only possible acceptable outcome of any investigation.
Having been involved in numerous drugs raids I can't really see how picking up a knife from within the premises and stabbing the suspect in the heart would really assist my investigation.
Similarly I have been as guilty as anyone of affording perhaps too much respect to suspects who are polite, compliant and have the trappings of success and wealth, as opposed to the more typical crack den raids when faced with an array of prolific offenders, determined to frustrate a search and reacting with hostility and aggression to my presence.
Unfortunately this is one case where I am sure the officers are now wishing they were under investigation for incivility for having detained Mr. Emmanuel naked, in handcuffs and "cup of tea-less" whilst conducting the search.
Having said all that I am certain that a thorough investigation will be carried out. I am sure that should any officers be found to be at fault they will be hung out to dry.
The first outcome of this will undoubtedly be much less tolerant approach to occupants when conducting drugs raids. That in itself is likely to cause more community issues than Mr. Emmanuel's death.
Tang0
First protect the pension - and I do hope Tang0 will provide details of his precautionary taser and handcuff policy, prior to commencing conversations with civilians. A haste which omitted such details also spurned the opportunity to proffer further insincere condolences.
ReplyDeleteDependent upon one's situation, what a blessing or a curse this golden police pension is to our Nation.
MTG
I would like to see the officers who were at the scene, did they have scratch marks or any sign of a scuffle ? Smiley, any evidence of flesh under his fingernails from one or other of the officers ?
ReplyDeleteWhat am I saying ? this kind of evidence would have been quickly smoothed over.
The officers have not been named or ever likely to be.
The MET at this very moment trying to cover for Murdoch and themselves in phone hacking. Any decent copper has long left the force due to internal corruption.
Another whitewash and the only witness is dead. Not easy to stab yourself in the heart, one needs to know the exact position of entry and how to slide the knife inbetween the ribcage. A panic suicide would take the knife and stab himself in the stomach. 'A cup of tea' indeed !!!!!
Melv,
ReplyDeleteI appreciate that you believe you may come across as highly intelligent with your complicated sentence structure and apparent desperate attempt to form a telling aphorism but the vast majority of your posts simply come across as incomprehensible.
If I have correctly divined your meaning then - when conducting a drugs raid - I will have carried out extensive research on the address and subjects within, as well as an operational order which attempts to cover all contingencies when carrying otu the raid. That will undoubtedly include the use of force.
For information, in the course of a drugs raid it could well be entirely justifiable to restrain the occupant using handcuffs, as well as enter using force and without warning to the occupant.
I am sorry if my condolences seem insincere to you, they were not meant to be.
Incidentally I notice that you have offered no respects to the family, preferring to use someone's death simply to attempt to point score in your position against the police.
I reiterate - David Emmanuel's death is a tragedy.
It is essential that the full circumstances are investigated and disclosed.
Tang0
I knew this article would bring out all those would be Wolfie Smith's and the anti police brigade or should I say platoon?
ReplyDeleteJust a few comments to show how ridiculous and bigoted some of the remarks are. A search of a large house can take all day. The suggestion that the only reason an hour and a half passed by because the police were clearing evidence and concocting a story is nonsense. Since when did the police become notorious for the murder of black men? You need to broaden your reading material and get a bigger perspective.
Then we have some cretin suggest that he couldn't possibly have stabbed himself in the heart in a panic. He would have stabbed himself in the stomach. Really! Who said he was panicking? Do you think the police knew the exact position to put a knife between his ribs into his heart? It isn't something taught at police training school funnily enough. Finally, when I said I hope they get through this unscathed, I did not mean because of any possible guilt. I meant that they will be put under enormous pressure and there will be all sorts of stupid allegations particularly because the victim is black. I hope that they have the mental capacity to get through it and resume their careers.
You are most kind, Tang0. However it is Hobson's choice to live with a literary style that defies police comprehension.
ReplyDeleteThe IQ bar is presently set at 86 for police recruits; the less bright having to limbo their way in. You can distinguish the latter by their reliance upon intuitive guesswork with language - and in your case Tang0, an obsession with *aphorism* has led to abnormally high appearances of the word in your posts.
MTG
Melvin,
ReplyDeleteThat's better. I understood exactly what you meant there. Perhaps we could call it a "Ratners Insult" - superficially well constructed but actually made of the same old crap.
I do hope that you aren't wasting your time collating posts attributed to Tang0 on police blogs.
Whatever would be the point?
Back to the OP - I take it you join with me in condolences towards the Emmanuel family and hope for a rapid and thorough investigation.
Tang0
Facts:
ReplyDeleteWhy was he allowed to go into the kitchen unsupervised to 'make a cup of tea' during the execution of a search warrant?
Why wasn't one of the officers 'minding' him which is normal practice when I used to conduct searches of residential premises?
I cannot believe in a high profile case like this that the police would not have been extra cautious to avoid any mishaps.
It looks shoddy...
zorro
Melvin, you are full of crap as usual. You pull figures out of the air and have no real knowledge or understanding of the subject. Where did you get the IQ 86 from for police recruits, for example? it is rubbish as usual. And if you have an IQ of less than that surely you have got to rise above it, not limbo under it.
ReplyDeleteAs you are such a fan of blogs have a look at .... is a cunt You have been nominated to appear on it.
@ Anonymous above - please read slowly and focus on words in the order they are set out:-
ReplyDelete'The likes of recruits such as yourself are denied entrance when the IQ bar is set at 86. The dimmest must limbo their way in, underneath the bar, as you did.'
Yes, difficult to grasp but I trust this paragraph was of assistance.
No it does not. You are still a self, and poorly educated, moron who thinks he is clever. If you were, you would not be spouting the hatred and pompous anti police crap that you do.
ReplyDeleteYou have not quoted your previous post above, you have completely rewritten it to try and make it sound sensible. Keep trying.
You really shouldn't rely on intuitive guesswork with language. (Remember that quote, wanker!) I hope you can understand that at last.
The situation is more complex than it seems. First of all, the police should not let him to go to the kitchen alone. But we cannot say what precisely happened there. It requires a further investigation, but in my opinion police had to control the situation, and something went wrong there...
ReplyDeleteTango,
ReplyDeleteNo posts are being edited or deleted, I am allowing everyone to have their say even if they are away with the fairies!
Lex
Anonymous, for Christ's sake don't make him explain himself again.
ReplyDeleteGiven that you need a map, compass and machete to fight your way through Melvin's normally convoluted and strangled verbiage, this was surprisingly comprehensible.
I overlooked the nonsense that the use of limbo made to the meaning of the post. It seems reasonable that Melv doesn't fully grasp the popular culture reference - he does after all operate in the rarefied intellectual heights of that bastion of academic excellence, the ivory towers of Huddersfield (University since 1992).
I understood the insult as "Youse are all fick, innit", which is an argument of the same intellectual rigour, but is a hell of a lot more easily understood.
Tang0
Anonymous, for Christ's sake don't make him explain himself again.
ReplyDeleteGiven that you need a map, compass and machete to fight your way through Melvin's normally convoluted and strangled verbiage, this was surprisingly comprehensible.
I overlooked the nonsense that the use of limbo made to the meaning of the post. It seems reasonable that Melv doesn't fully grasp the popular culture reference - he does after all operate in the rarefied intellectual heights of that bastion of academic excellence, the ivory towers of Huddersfield (University since 1992).
I understood the insult as "Youse are all fick, innit", which is an argument of the same intellectual rigour, but is a hell of a lot more easily understood.
Tang0
Yes i'm sure exactly what happened was that the police travelled out of the Met and stabbed a high profile black suspect to death in his own house and they are all now covering it up.Happens all the time.
ReplyDeleteJaded.
"Happens all the time"
ReplyDeleteNo, just too often.
Firstly, let me extend my sincere condolences to the family and friends of Smiley, whilst I wasn't exposed to much of his music, it is still sad to see someone pass away under 'inconclusive' circumstances'
ReplyDeleteAs a black man, I feel that when an injustice occurs, it is instantly categorised as 'racial'.
It is known that police have focused on groups or individuals, but these are not just based on mere guess work or intuition. How do you think people from the middle east feel when they are stopped in the street or at the airport now? We 'ALL' profile people, if you saw a man with tattoo's on his face would you come to the conclusion that he is a successful business man with millions? probably not because of his profile.
I am not concluding to anything in terms of how events transpired, but unless you were there and can provide a 'factual' testimony, your comments are just words.
I am tired of people just blaming the police, because its easy too. If it was a death caused by excessive force during the raid then I could understand logically 'how' he died.. because the events would make sense.
But for a police office or officers to stab a man, in the heart, in his own home, after being granted a warrant by a judge in order to assist in an investigation that would have sent him to prison AND would have seized his assets TO THEN compromise the whole case and place into question the integrity of the force and the officers for the sake of??
It just doesn't make sense for the police to stab him!! There are details missing I am sure, but to say the police stabbed him is pure conjecture without clear foundation or evidence.
@ THE "THINKING" POLICEMAN - KEEP DRIBBLING......YOUR DAYS ARE NUMBERED.
ReplyDeleteALL YOU PIGS ARE COMPLICIT IN MURDER.
STR8 TALK.
REAL TALK.
NO APOLOGY.
Since when did the police become notorious for the murder of black men?
ReplyDeleteHow about since the early 70's.. that i know of ...
http://www.blaqfair.com/blaqfair/dthcustody/unpet.htm
ReplyDeleteTHE HANDIWORK OF THE BRITISH POLICE FORCE......
Enough is Enough ..
ReplyDeleteBack and forth - the fact of the matter is that a man has died whilst in the supervision of police officer. In 2011 what educated well trained police officer is going to raid a drug mans house and let him wonder into the kitchen to make a cup of tea, how do they not know (with all their training) that this suspect was not going to be getting rid of evidence. I do not understand how they made him walk around freely big house or not. They knew what they went there for, their actions has to be questioned
ReplyDeleteHe was an "alleged" drugs man, i don't see anywhere he had been found guilty of anything, mistakes have definately been made, but the biggest one was allowing an innocent man to die in suspicicious, very strange circumstances, that is negligence, and if somebody saw and did not try to prevent what happened, then that is assisted suicide..... Anybody who stepped in to help would surely have been injured themselves??.. Somebody determined to take their own life would not be happy at intervention .... This does happen too often, and the police cannot blame us when we take the view that there are cover-ups.. If the general public are made to be accountable for their actions then the police must also.
ReplyDeleteThis is a total farce and utter BS........
ReplyDelete1) Why was he not handcuffed and watched as police do when raiding a house?
2) Who commits suicide and is able to to plunge and knife through their heart to the extreme it comes out the other side?????
Too many ppl are being mistreated at the hands of the police and this need to stop!!! dying in your own house in police care???? If they do stuff like this in you home what would they do in a police station ????
OH Mister THINKING POLICEMAN ....YOU LABELED SMILEY AS A MINOR ARTIST !!!!!! HOW DARE YOU ...PERCEPTION IS 9/10ths of the LAW NOW ????...YOU ARE A JOKE WITH EVEN A BIGGER JOKE OF A BLOG GO READ SOME FACTS AND THINK AGAIN. NO JUSTICE NO PEACE
ReplyDeleteIts the same old story!! But will anyone be brought to justice i think not.In my younger years i had a few little run ins with the police.i have never ever known them to let a prisoner out of there sight,it just doesnt happen.we need truth...Ed Deegan
ReplyDeleteWhat i think we are agreed on, is that Smiley Culture family deserve the truth, if it was a member of my family i would be screaming for blood, Smiley's family have carried themselves with dignity through one of the worst situations imaginable, It has caused a major stir because this was a well known Entertainer, these "unexplained, accidental or even self-inficted" deaths have to stop. Tensions between police and communities are bad enough already.. I hope the police will give his family, and others the RESPECT of the truth, no matter how bad it is.. the families have committed no crimes , and IF a crime has been committed here, somebody must pay for it. Police procedure failed. He could still be alive.
ReplyDeleteNo Justice No Peace.....
ReplyDeleteUnexpected mix of replies there (not!)
ReplyDeleteI have learnt lots though:-
That Warlingham in Surrey is a hotbed of community tension.
Police officers acted like jackbooted thugs because they DIDN'T handcuff an innocent man when they raided his house.
Police negligence is to blame for not anticipating that a millionaire might try to kill himself during a drugs raid.
Police hate black guys so much that they will travel out of the Met to stab them.
The police are so vicious that people will believe any website that misquotes statistics about deaths following police contact. (blaqfair - 1000 BLACK people died in police CUSTODY. Nonsense - see the IPCC stats or even the INQUEST ones)
"STR8 TALK, REAL TALK" means posting anonymously in capitals.
A single stab wound to the heart means "knife through their heart to the extreme it comes out the other side"
I expect a thorough and rapid investigation, but am resigned the fact that Smiley Culture/ David Emmanuel will now be recorded in popular culture as a victim of police brutality regardless of the result.
Tang0
"...the rarefied intellectual heights of that bastion of academic excellence, the ivory towers of Huddersfield (University since 1992)"
ReplyDeleteIvory towers of Huddersfield? A great debut attempt at 'aphorism' and marred only by irrelevance and absence of wit, Tang0. Eat fish, get more sleep and rise earlier.
MTG
This case IS a black community/police issue and the absolute truth of what happened that day must come out.
ReplyDeleteBut because of who Smiley was and because people love him of all races & ages & across the world. This case one is different. We know it. The police know it.
1000s of people are supporting this case for TRUTH and a full story. We await the response from the IPPC investigation.
A white woman
That Warlingham in Surrey is a hotbed of community tension.
ReplyDeleteNobody specified Warlingham .. it's eveywhere, tension between police and communities...
Police officers acted like jackbooted thugs because they DIDN'T handcuff an innocent man when they raided his house.
Procedure is to contain suspects,both to prevent disposal of evidence and escape, does this not also include to keep everybody safe from harm? suspects and officers alike?
Police negligence is to blame for not anticipating that a millionaire might try to kill himself during a drugs raid.
The procedure was not followed, a man is dead, what would you call it?
The police are so vicious that people will believe any website that misquotes statistics about deaths following police contact. (blaqfair - 1000 BLACK people died in police CUSTODY. Nonsense - see the IPCC stats or even the INQUEST ones)
For us old enough to remember, death and serious injury were commonplace in police custody, why did they bring in cctv in police stations?
A single stab wound to the heart means "knife through their heart to the extreme it comes out the other side"
This should not have happened , but it did, and questions are being asked and answers must be given
I expect a thorough and rapid investigation, but am resigned the fact that Smiley Culture/ David Emmanuel will now be recorded in popular culture as a victim of police brutality regardless of the result.
It is up to the police to prove different.
Jan
Jan, you have hit the nail on the head. The general population are innocent until proven guilty. Anti police bigots are still innocent, even though proven guilty. The police however are guilty until proven innocent but will still be guilty according to the anti police bigots.
ReplyDeleteSome of the commenters on here are simply as mad as a box of frogs! The lunatics are pretty much in control these days.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeletePeternolan9 -I don't usually remove comments as everyone should be able to have their say. I have removed your comment as it does not relate to anything on this blog and appears to just be trying to promote your own cause. Having looked at your linked site I suggest you seek medical help. Lex
ReplyDeleteLex,
ReplyDeleteAny comments on procedure (lack of) during the search of this house. Perhaps we should let arrested people in the custody suite make their own cups of tea, it might cut down on a civilian employee or two.....
zorro
Zorro, I was hoping that more information on Smileys death would be made public by now. I have heard third hand what the officer's account is. I think that I should wait until the investigation is completed before making comment on the account. I have no doubt that some procedures were not followed in that Surrey Police may not have been informed prior to the visit to the address by the Metropolitan Police and I suspect that the detectives that were involved may not have been properly equipped and probably needed other support. If Smiley was allowed into the kitchen then he may not have been being properly controlled considering his demeanour.
ReplyDeleteI have no doubt the Met will come in for some criticism as to how they dealt with this incident but, did they kill Smiley? No. Were they responsible for his death? Not in my opinion. But I have no doubt that others will vehemently disagree.
Happens all the time? Name one person stabbed to death by the police.Then list the names of police officers killed in the line of duty.
ReplyDeleteHe was a drug dealer who couldn't face 20 years in prison.
PS Why did the IPCC hold a public meeting in Brixton to announce the enquiry? Playing to the crowd? Why not hold it in Warlingham where he lived?
Jaded
What a pity to be jaded by name and nature.
ReplyDeleteyes half-wit I was actually christened jaded.
ReplyDeletedidn't see any answers to my questions though....
still jaded
I heard form someone about this 'attempt by the Police to smooth and gloss over this case by having this blog.
ReplyDeleteHow long will this blog be allowed to try and make excuses for the Police?
And to 'Jaded' The IPCC did not call the press conference. Wake up,talk sense - THE FAMLY CALLED IT!
Why Brixton?
Smiley grew and and has a huge following all over and especially Wandsworth Road SW8! Less than 2 miles from Brixton. The Police messed up, we will see how soon they speak, they have been very silent.Plus Smiley was 'accused' of being a drug dealer, but no drugs were ever found or does this PC PLOD BLOGGER know different?
Justice for everyone = the truth.
INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY = SMILEY.
POLICE need to speak as the longer they keep their snouts closed the more corrupt it all seems.
Stick to facts - Smiley would be alive today if the Police did things the right way.
ps. This blog has a blinkered cretin for an owner.
RIP Smiley Culture.
DG. Wandsworth Road.
APril 16th MARCH FROM WANDSWORTH ROAD SW8 TO SCOTLAND YARD.
T(not so) Thinking Policeman.
ReplyDeleteYou sound bitter that Smiley owned a bigger house and drove a better car than you?
What's all this 'lifestyle begs questions'?
Such a statement by Smiey would not be hard to prove/disprove.
A BLACK MAN WITH A MILLION POUND HOUSE
SELLING DRUGS? Get out of the dark ages,do not be so ignorant.
The only one on drugs sounds to be you, Mr Blogger.
A man died and we all want to know why.
What begs the question is why you 'boys in blue' are so silent.
Some are saying you are trying to get your stories straight and discredit Smiley to deflect attention from the real issue.
Also 'Conspiracy to supply means ZERO!
Did they have evidence? NO!
I suspect/predict in the neasr future a more hateful smear campaign by the Police against a man not here to defend himself.
Any truth that the case against Smiley was so weak that he would have walked away a free man?
That would hurt the Police force, all that time wasted trying to pin charges on someone.
Police Officers, come out and speak and allow the family the truth so they know exactly what happened.
RIP SMILEY CULTURE.
Unlike you conspiracy theorists the police are not allowed to comment on investigations until they are over.Do not take their silence as an admission of guilt.
ReplyDeleteHe was charged with conspiracy to supply drugs,not possession so no drugs have to be found on him.He was the kingpin in an importation ring,open your eyes.He was on bail awaiting trial.Do you seriously think he was murdered to prevent a trail?You are deluded.
I don't care how big anyones house is if they have earnt it honestly but it irritates me and other decent people to see criminal scum living it up,and when caught their "community" rise up to defend them.Whatever colour/race they may be.
Jaded
Nice article, thanks for the information.
ReplyDeleteLet's remove the police from this for a minute, and say that some of Smiley's business associates came to visit him, because he owed them money, or had made a bad business deal. And, in the course of their meeting, Smiley goes into the kitchen and stabs himself to death. These gentlemen would have a hard time convincing the police that their business partner just happened to kill himself. So, whilst your comparative story makes sense, you said you were young and naive, which is hardly what you could call four Met detectives, serving a warrant on an alleged drug kingpin. If it is true that they did not notify the local police, they must deal with the scrutiny that this action will bring. Likewise, they must deal with the criticism that must come from not handcuffing the suspect. What if he had a Uzi stashed in the kitchen and decided to go out Larry Davis style? The judge who signed the warrant must have known that Smiley was due in court the following week. Why launch a new investigation when someone is already on bail? Why not present the new information, to the prosecutor, and use it to try to get bail revoked, then search the house while the suspect is in custody? if a criminal, after being given bail, continues in the same criminal enterprise, revoking bail would seem to be the easiest way to search the house. Law and order would be easy if all police were honest and all criminals crooked, but the fact is that they are not. To me, it seems like four Met detectives decided to pay Smiley a visit, armed with "inside" information, and let him commit harikari...
ReplyDeleteLaw and order would be easier if people that took their knowledge of criminal procedure from TV shows didn't spout nonsense about "revoking bail" on blogs.
ReplyDelete"four Met detectives decided to pay Smiley a visit, armed with "inside" information, and let him commit harikari... "
Huh?
The only tangible reform that appears to be being suggested is mandatory handcuffing of suspects when executing search warrants.
I am not convinced that that is either a step forward for community relations or a proportionate action in all warrants I have been involved in.
Doubtless those whose only involvement in house searches is taken from TV drama will know better.
Tang0
Jaded. You were christened well. Lol. Drug kingpin?
ReplyDeleteYou poor deluded fool. Smiley said he has diamond drilling co
Concessions. I ask you to prove he did not.
Envy can cloud a persons judgement. Innocent until proven guilty.
INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY!
The Police are at fault. We just need to know how much at fault.
The police should make a statement even just to say they are investigating and to offer their condolences.
"INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY!
ReplyDeleteThe Police are at fault. We just need to know how much at fault. "
Was that intentionally ironic?
Tang0
You were trained in how to conduct a house search, and still arrived at the scene, naive and under- prepared. But, instead of looking at that, you accuse me of getting my information from TV. Maybe you received your training from watching TV. I'm here in the USA, where bail can be revoked. Now, maybe that cannot be done in the Uk, but that does not change the other points I have raised. You start of your blog trying to put forward what you want readers to believe is an objective analysis, but then become all emotional when other points of view don't support your perspective. The police officers involved in this incident deserve all the added scrutiny their actions have wrought. If you can make speculation about Smiley, then accept that same speculation about the police's behavior.
ReplyDeleteSo leaving aside your misunderstanding of UK bail, your points appear to be :
ReplyDelete1)The police attending to carry out a search warrant is the same as gangsters attending to "sort out" a drugs debt.
2)They should have handcuffed Mr. Emmanuel.
Are there any other circumstances that you would like us to introduce mandatory handcuffing?
Can you see how unnecessarily handcuffing people during a house search might be disproportionate and harmful to police/community relations?
Do you think it would be entirely reasonable that the police should have predicted that the millionaire Mr. Emmanuel was most likely to have reacted to police attendance by stabbing himself?
Don't get me wrong - I have no problem with handcuffing people when I am searching their addresses. Generally to prevent the disposal of evidence, prevent escape and to protect officers.
I also have no problem in not handcuffing suspects during house searches. Perhaps this anti-police criticism will change this latter approach.
Tang0
ps.
ReplyDeleteIt's not my blog.
Tang0
TangO,
ReplyDeleteYour point seems to be, that as soon as someone becomes a police officer, they can no longer be criminal. What the police need to do, even if it does mean handcuffing all suspects, is develop protocols that are not dependent on how much money a suspect might have. Whether the person is a millionaire or a beggar, should not make a difference. The person should be handcuffed, so the police can safely carry out their business. As far as my scenario being about "gangsters," that is your interpretation. My point is that there was a man in the kitchen with a knife stuck through his body, and four men claim that he killed himself. If you want everyone to automatically believe their story, then they have to face every and all questions. i came here because I thought from the title, the policeman would entertain all objective theories. So, it is quite logical to propose foul play on the part of police officers. Just as it is to assume that Smiley might have been involved with something criminal. As I said before, law and order would be easy if all police were honest and all criminals crooked. This is evident not from watching Tv shows but from reading history. I dare say that if the scenario I proposed had occurred, the objective part of your brain would kick in, and you would be formulating the questions that would get to the bottom of this. This type of self analytical reasoning is necessary within the police force because without it, there is nothing that separates democratic states from the crooked dictatorships we see everywhere... I have seen poor police work and judicial procedure first hand in the UK, USA, Canada, South America etc, not only release dangerous criminals back onto the streets but also detain innocent people. One thing that I have noticed is the propensity of fellow police officers to treat logical questions with disdain and incredulity, and then wonder why their stature with the common people has diminished.
You appear to be proposing mandatory procedures - such as the enforced handcuffing of suspects during house searches.
ReplyDeleteFine. If that's what you want I would be happy to comply. Personally as I have repeated on several occasions I believe that on a large number of occasions that would be disproportionate, unnecessary and possibly heavy-handed and harm relations between the police and the public.
I speak as someone who has executed numerous search warrants some involving handcuffs and some not.
Should these officers have handcuffed Mr. Emmanuel - quite clearly, in hindsight - YES.
Do I believe that they have been negligent - quite possibly.
Had that negligence resulted in him running off or destroying the vital evidence I would quite possibly be laughing at them.
Given that their laxity may well have allowed him to kill himself then I am appalled.
Does this make them responsible for his death?
Only to the extent that he may have been technically in police custody. I struggle to see what criminal act the detectives have committed in this case.
Do I believe that they have deliberately killed Mr. Emmanuel? No. I may be proved wrong in the investigation, but I am really struggling to find any possible motive (outside of the script of a B movie) why 4 detectives from the SOCG would swear out a warrant and travel all the way to Surrey with the intention of some sort of extra-judicial execution.
As with every investigation where 5 people enter a room and 4 leave it - context is relevant.
4 doctors entering the room of a dying patient?
4 surgeons going into an operation?
4 gangsters entering the room of an "associate"?
4 burglars entering the room of a sleeping occupant?
Is that a suitably analytical response to your "logical" questions?
Tang0
Anon @ 18:50
ReplyDeleteTang0 underwent upgrade surgery and became the first human recipient of an avian brain. Nowadays he is perched to miss the point and repeat himself.
Tee Hee Hee, Melv.
ReplyDeleteI look forward to missing your point when you eventually make one.
Tang0
TangO,
ReplyDeleteYou could have started off with a response like this instead of trying to attack my intelligence. And, life is stranger than fiction, so I've heard many reports that a B movie script writer could not dream up, having taken all the peyote in Southern California. Myself, I just want to talk to policemen, who are objective thinkers, those who are willing to accept human frailty amongst their ranks, and not adopt a "them against we" approach to discussions about police behavior.
I have not seen any reports stating that drugs were found at the property, so WHY would smiley suddenly panic and stab himself. If he was feeling suicidal due to the previous case why would he wait until he was in police custody to kill himself. This does not make sense.
ReplyDeletejust thought that it was ironic that 'lex ferenda' called Smiley a victim.
ReplyDelete"I meant that they will be put under enormous pressure and there will be all sorts of stupid allegations particularly because the victim is black."
I then pose the question, if the police had no involvement in his death, then what is Smiley the victim of?
Havent had the chance to read all comments, but the one question I was struggling to get to grips with was, if he intended to kill himself because he was fearful of imprisonment etc why open your gates to the police and no just do it behind closed doors?
To The OP
ReplyDeleteI am pretty appalled that you would trivialise someone's death in police custody by repeatedly citing the alternative as being mandatory handcuffing of suspects, and that the 'community won't like it.'
The two situations are not equal. A 'community upset' at handcuffing during a raid is not equal to a man's death in such unusual circumstances.
You almost seem to be saying to this so-called 'community', "You asked for it, which would you prefer, one man dead or all you 'suspects' handcuffed?'
Can't you see that this is NOT the real point?
If the main point of this incident was simply, 'that man should have been handcuffed,' where some damage or incident had occurred, then okay, keep making that kind of statement...BUT SOMEBODY DIED!
Many of us want to know EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED.
You were not there.
You do not know whether the police were innocent - or not.
You do not know whether Smiley Culture had a fatalistic reason to suddenly end his life by committing suicide - or not.
I don't know whether you actually care - or not. 'Cos you come across as extremely biased, flippant and judgemental.
An 'innocent until proven guilty' man died with four policemen present in his home.
Of course the police have a serious case to answer.
They remain innocent until proven guilty, also, but they are not the ones who are now dead.
Jaycee
typical...
ReplyDeleteignorant
biased
copper...
standard.
seeds
Im hoping you are not suggesting that all policemen are beyond suspicion... I know as a thinking policemen you will be aware that like all humans, policemen are humans, and humans are not all angels and suffer from the darker side of the human condition....
ReplyDeleteyou was right it was a risky subject, but from one philosopher to another lets not assume motive based on job title... thats patently biased based upon your own personal experiences, as you can imagine with approx 400 deaths in police custody over the last few years (a notable amount of which had suspicious circumstances which as a thinking inspector im sure you can appreciate) without one serious conviction, other people have had different experiences...
Im not saying you are a bad guy, but if you would like more information on this startling statistic, i would be happy to have the relevant people put you on their mailing list...
I know this, if this statistic had been produced in a community / or other organisation there would be a huge red flag over it, and a special group from your sector tasked to investigate and attempt to end the issues that contribute to such a dangerous environment...
Jaycee,
ReplyDeleteI believe I am the person to whom I think your post is directed (and I am NOT the author of this blog)
I in no way intend to trivialise the death of Smiley Culture. I am trying to highlight the difficult position police find themselves in when executing search warrants.
We currently have powers such as the use of handcuffs that we CAN (not MUST) exercise IF we can justify them.
No-one knows what happened in that house apart from the people present.
If you believe that Smiley Culture was murdered by the police, then to be quite frank, discussion about handcuffing is irrelevant.
Let's wait for the investigation.
If you believe the account of the DC that Smiley Culture stabbed himself then the question is "How could that have been prevented?" - because the most important thing is that this does not happen again.
The most obvious answer is that handcuffing him would have prevented this.
If that is the case it may be that the police officer SHOULD have handcuffed him, in which case doubtless the investigation will point out at which point in the investigation that decision should have been made and why it was not made.
The biggest problem with blaming the officer for the decision he made not to handcuff is that it is an almost impossible decsion to make. Hindsight, when things go wrong will always say - tht person SHOULD have been handcuffed, whther the failure has resulted in the suspects escape, the officer's injury, the destruction of vital evidence or as possibly occurred here - the awful situation where the suspect takes his own life
The most obvious solution to the difficulty of second guessing what a suspect might or might not do as a consequence of his interaction with the police is to remove the decision from the police, ie to make handcuffing mandatory rather than ENTIRELY a decision for the officer as it is now.
I am not in favour of that - for numerous reasons, not least that, as a member of the public, I would not like to be handcuffed whilst my property was being searched. As I have previously explained having conducted numerous search warrants under numerous Acts, I have found that the discretion I am allowed in using handcuffs enables me to establish a far better rapport with occupants and suspects, and often enables me to exit a premises much quicker - with much less disruption in sometimes quite innocent peoples lives.
If there is another solution to this then I would be more than happy to here it. I imagine that like everyone you would hope that the consequence of Smiley's death would be to prevent it happening again , rather than simply to blame a police officer or "the police" for his death.
I am more than happy to await the result of this investigation and I hope it will be full and transparent. Most importantly I hope that it focusses not just in apportioning blame , but also in making proposals to prevent it happening again. I am worried by the tone of some of the commentaators that there has been considerable prejudgement such that it has already been decided that the police are solely responsible for his death and he investigation should only be a matter of judging the extent of their culpability.
I may have misinterpreted it but the last sentence of your post suggests exactly that. Rather than consider that "the police have a serious case to answer" I would rather the investigation focussed on "What happened inside that house?"
Tang0
Oh I added my first answer to one a question, we may or not be asking ourselves: its in the link next to my title at the top of my contribution (one assumed by millions of others) but the URL was too long... so it just goes to a page that says "what does"
ReplyDeleteanyway the important content of the page ive placed below:
What does 'power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely' mean?
In: Famous Quotations, Ethics [Edit categories]
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This phrase means is part of a longer quote: Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. This quotation was from a letter from John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton, first Baron Acton (1834-1902) to Bishop Mandell Creighton in 1887. Lord Acton then stated, "Great men are almost always bad men."
The statement means that people with power end up using it - they might start out using their powers for the good of others, but eventually they end up using it just because they can. Absolute power, such as Hitler or Kim Jong-Il have, leads to making political decisions based on your personal opinions, and that is when you have tyrants and dictators.
Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_'power_corrupts_and_absolute_power_corrupts_absolutely'_mean#ixzz1ICznRQ3f
i thought as an armchair philosopher and fellow human being you might appreciate this, i hope you do :)
Concerned citizen,
ReplyDeleteRegarding your "startling statistic":
Whilst a single avoidable death in police custody is tragic perhaps you could provide some context.
The figure you quote is actually relevant to "deaths in police custody or following other forms of police contact". Perhaps you could examine the definition of this term as used by IPCC and INQUEST and explain why it is so often grossly misquoted as "in police custody".
Perhaps you could clarify the "several years" during which these deaths occurred - I believe it is over AT LEAST 10 years - and then compare that with the number of people who actually went through police custody (not including those that had "some form of police contact") during that time. Just to provide an indication of how widespread the problem is.
Finally perhaps you could give the exact number of those that are "a notable amount of which are suspicious circumstances". I am sure you are aware that every single one is subject to an IPCC investigation.
The only reason I ask this is that it does nothing to your argument if you were to be quoting spurious figures, with utterly no context.
Your right!!!!!
ReplyDeleteits really important to get the facts straight...
I should not qoute from anonymous sources... or speculate that which i have not researched thoroughly myself... even if the source is attached to a respectable profession, which all be it naively, i tend to trust..
But the time has come to start thinking about the types of trust we put into these dubious sources of information, specifically as they have transparently displayed a disturbing tendency, an expertise if you like, for misinformation....
well the good news is that during the campaign all of the facts will come out, and ill try to get a report together for this blog which qualifies what i have just said... But ill tell you this based on a series of trusted sources the death count in custody is very high indeed in relation to the reporting on it :))... U know from people who are compelled to track this type of thing.... Im willing to project a little even though i should not... there is a strong possibility that there have been a series of definable cases where the process of investigation and external attempts to derail a campaign have brought about an atmosphere where the pursuit of justice tails off a tad, specifically if it means someone can get into trouble, and i don't mean the already dead person... complicity, obligation well this type of thing has so many names.. im sure we can use our imagination and extrapulate a little more... In my very limited experience being on the other side of the fence as it were e.g. not a paid public servant (or a reporter)... i have personally witnessed one of these campaigns in action when a past friend "died in a police van whilst being restrained".... well its a very interesting story actually.. family was not let inside the room to examine the body, more unexplainable wounds were found, campaign derailed, public not informed etc etc... unluckily for him there was no momentum where informed and enlightend citizens could get together and pool resources to develop a challenge to a very slick campaign worthy of a group of highly paid motivated individuals (or maybe not so highly paid) that are corralled just for this purpose... but you do get my point i hope, i think we are on the same side (justice i hope) but something has happened, a decision has been made, somewhere, that has corrupted an entire regulatory system under the guise of a higher purpose... this friend of mine was an artist too, the same as smiley.. look im not saying this armchair thinker is not a good guy... but it does not promote confidence that this armchair philosopher, an investigator to boot automatically believes that police officers are innocent.... it is this that is the touch stone for the entire campaign, it is this that is going to ignite an awareness that people who think they are good will protect each other even if they become bad, i mean fail to protect the public interest... it is this type of ignorance and insensitivity... and let me say it does appear as a cultural arrogance which is something that as you quite rightly pointed out needs to be defined... as im confident it will be...
the figures you require will come out through the campaign im sure...
In regards to the IPCC investigation... can i ask you a bit of a cheeky question, you dont happen to have the stats of successfully carried out investigations AND prosecutions carried out by the IPCC in similar circumstances because from witness statements that i am aware of, it does not sound like too many given the circumstances of the individual cases... of course im making every attempt to get information from as many RELIABLE & BALANCED sources as possible... but you know how difficult that can be with all this obligation and complicity about!!!!!
maybe you can point me to some too...
see below post for context:
following on from above and in relation to context: in the spirit of this platform i would like to add a footnote which can be found at the bottom of this blog:
ReplyDeleteThe stories I tell here are all true but my purpose is not technical accuracy. My purpose is to illustrate the nature of policing in an educational and entertaining way.
I have tried to respect the privacy of the citizens of the city and to relate specific facts without identifying individuals. I believe I succeed in this but if you do recognize yourself and believe others will too, please contact me and I shall rectify it.
'Blood goh run if justice noh come'. Remember that ? New Cross in the 80's. Nuttin has changed. Abuse of power and racism, bigotry and prejudice still rule the day in blighty.
ReplyDeleteand a nice bit of video from last weekend's rally in London. Cops beating the crap out of unarmed protestors:
ReplyDeletewww.youtube.com/watch?v=3zii2qzGbaM
Concerned Citizen,
ReplyDeleteThe figures for deaths in custody of following police conatct can be obtained quite easily from IPCC or INQUEST websites.
Figures for the number of people that have beein through custody over the last 10 years are on teh Home Office websites - several MILLIONS.
Details of IPCC investigations are available and I believe the stats are all on their websiste as well.
Just to jump ahead in this well used old argument - their have been NO successful prosecutions of a police officer for masnlaughter of someone in custody. There have been a number of prosectuions - some of which have resulted in convictions for lesser offences and some have resulted in "Not guilty" verdicts
justiceforall
ReplyDelete"'Blood goh run if justice noh come'"
Excellent, can I expect to see you campaigning for the arrest of the killer of PC Blakelock or WPC Fletcher?
How will I recognise you?
' apolgies, that should have read, "blood ah goh run if justice noh come "
ReplyDeleteif you're uneducated as to that phrase see here:
http://www.assatashakur.org/forum/afrikan-world-news/43873-remembering-new-cross-fire-30-years-ago-today.html
and no you won't see me campaigning for the arrest of the killer of PC Blakelock or WPC Fletcher. They're cops, i have absoutely no sympathy for cops considering their bully boy tactics, the cowardly lies that spew from their mouths in court. Who would want to join such a unit of control freaks.
I would and did.......it's easy to snipe from the outside......ironically your title is "justice for all" except dead police officers....
ReplyDeleteJaded
glad you got the irony.
ReplyDeletenow watch the video and be quiet.
ReplyDeleteThe Police initially stated that Smiley stabbed himself and they found him on the floor.
ReplyDeleteNOW...Detective Constable Stuart Hobkirk now sates in court'Smiley Culture stabbed himself in front of us'
My God, this sounds like a typical Police cover up, sounds like it, but is it? Yep!
I think the Police will cover their backsides as best they can, they have had quite a while to get their 'story' straight.
Remember to join the march from:
WANDSWORTH ROAD SW8 TO SCOTLAND YARD
APRIL 16 FROM 12.00hr to 16.00hr.
Assembly point: Southbank Club 124 - 130 Wandsworth Road SW8 2DL
Show support for an Icon taken too soon.
And do not be surprised to see the Police plant their usual 'professional trouble makers' to upset the march and paint it in a negative light, but I will say this..DON'T!
You really will not get a good reception.
RIP Smiley Culture.
DG.
SW8
SUPPORT WHATS REALLY GOING ON IN YOUR LOCAL COMMUNITY . www.freetheinfo.com
ReplyDeleteSHARE THE LINK WITH ANYONE YOU KNOW
@ Concerned answerer to my comments..
ReplyDeleteIm still concerned... im sorry but i have to say it...
thank you for the time you have spent answering and attempting to correct some of the initial figures i gave out.. you sound like someone who cares about facts and the manner in which they are used... I AM TOO!!! im going to adjust that aspect of my commentary, thanks to you, a contribution that i appreciate alot... but look there are some real underlying issues here... there are quite alot of members of the community that have had bad experiences... u know with inexperienced cops and all that... there is also a problem in the handling of the public and press, which is indicative of a type of racial stereo type.. neither of which are symbols of a justice orientated concern, more self survival than anything else i can think of that bears a close resemblance...
i have more to say about this... and ill come back here to do it.... but officers i think you need to put yourself in other peoples shoes, how can you protect the public if you dont understand what the hell is actually really happening and how people feel around you... its like the blind leading the ones that can see but are not allowed to speak, because by speaking we make you defensive.. and when we make you defensive you close ranks... more soon!!!!
Still concerned citizen
ReplyDelete@ Jaded one more thing.... i have family that have been reasonably senior officers and judges in different parts of the world, also very close family that have served in the forces etc etc.. im not anti ALL police by a long chalk.. the issue we are currently facing is a community that has experiences with a lack of adequate recourse to justice and a dead person who on this occasion is not a police officer... in consideration of your likely reaction if on a forum that has decided to open up and discuss the issues related to the death of a police officer and the investigation and the prejudices surrounding the different interest groups participating, can we at least attempt to try and understand that the man that is dead is a person the community has an affiliation with. A death that has taken place, regardless of peoples opinions and leanings, in circumstances that demand dialogue, dialogue about his death not a police officers... whats the point of making things any worse than they are, and worse than they are going to be, by getting into the types of banter that are reinforcing the stereo types concerned citizens are trying to deconstruct... its not useful at all, especially when coming from a public servant...
Consider for a moment, Met explanations for the execution of Charles de Menezes:-
ReplyDeletede Menezes ran away from police and vaulted over ticket barriers.
de Menezes was wearing a padded jacket, a suspicious looking thick belt and carried a bag.
de Menezes was challenged by police on numerous occasions but failed to comply with repeated requests.
Anthony Larkin, a Metropolitan Police Forensic employee who coincidentally gave the only statement that would provide, albeit tenuously, some justification for the shooting, stated that de Menezes was wearing a "bomb belt with wires coming out of it".
All the above were lies and fabrications to help facilitate a most outrageous cover-up. Eye witnesses, CCTV and other independent accounts proved that the police offerings were false. Furthermore, police officers 'corroborated' false statements made by colleagues - in an organised collusion which protected officers and perverted the course of justice. From this debacle of 'evidence fixing', the Met merely concedes 'Lessons Have Been Learned'.
If that at least is true, the death of Smiley Culture will see police carefully appraising all other versions before committing itself to the one which absolutely vindicates police. A leopard has no inclination to change spots if it could do so.
Let me conclude with a condemnation of police officers who contributed vexatious comments on this thread and wish campaigners for the truth, the very best of luck.
Dr Melvin T Gray
Concern4Justice
So, because the police shot Jean Charles de Menezes we probably killed Smiley Culture and have concocted a story to cover our backsides. The two cases are poles apart. I will be the first to admit the de Menezes case was a cock up. But the officers that shot him honestly believed he was a terrorist. The failings were elsewhere. The jury agreed!
ReplyDeleteWhat vexacious comments have been made by police officers? The web and this thread are full of comments from ignorant bigots who won't accept any version of the truth and threaten violence.
The police have never said that Smiley went into the kitchen alone. He was accompanied but not handcuffed. He picked up a knife and threatened the officers before killing himself.
Let me give you some vexacious remarks to be getting on with. I am sickened by all these comments about what a fantastic great bloke Smiley Culture was. Any South Londoner knows he was into drugs and firearms and all that goes with it. It is a pity he hasn't stood trial, a few eyes may have been opened.
When are the community going to stand up and start criticizing the criminal elements within instead of embracing them. It doesn't make for a good community or culture when criminal elements are not only tolerated but lauded.
Nice April Fools Melvin! Some cocks might have thought you were being serious. Even you maybe.
ReplyDelete@ answerer of my concerns
ReplyDeleteI was wrong and i apologise for my lack of checking the details... Ill try to ensure that it does not happen again.. thank you for pulling me up early :)
A total of 333 people have died in or following police custody over the past 11 years, but no officer has ever been successfully prosecuted, according to a watchdog's report.
Prosecutions were recommended against 13 officers based on "relatively strong evidence of misconduct or neglect", but none resulted in a guilty verdict.
Calling for further research, the Independent Police Complaints Commission said juries were unwilling to convict police officers. Len Jackson, IPCC interim chair, said: "It is clear to us there is some real difficulty in this area."
The IPCC had a responsibility to investigate and present a file to the CPS "if we feel there are any matters potentially of a criminal nature", he said. But then it was up to the criminal justice system.
"We have a jury system that is as good as anything in the world, but it is clear that juries quite often find it difficult to convict police officers."
Only in one case was a civilian member of police staff found guilty of misconduct, and sentenced to six months, the IPCC's study into deaths in England and Wales between 1998 and 2010 shows.
It also reveals that 16 people were murdered last year in cases where police had prior contact with the victims. That represents an increase of nine murders in the previous year, though the IPCC said that increase might be explained by better reporting of such cases.
link is here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/dec/03/deaths-police-custody-officers-convicted
With respect concerned citizen, most rational people look at the facts before making their case.
ReplyDeleteYou appear happy to disregard the the facts when they don't support your position, refusing to consider that your misunderstanding of incorrect information might suggest that your position is wrong.
I don't dispute that there are difficulties, specifically between the "black community" and the police but that problem is not helped when "activists" like Lee Jasper and to a lesser extent single issue agitators like MTG, jump on an incident such as this and use it to push their own single issue whether that be racist police or police conspiracies.
I am not trying to defend the police, I am trying to explain the reality of what police powers are and look at the possible consequences of listneing to those outide commentators.
What is depressing is that any police contribution is taken as defensive or closing ranks, whereas the single issue idiots' words are taken as gospel with no thought to their agenda.
A couple of points to ponder - I am posting from direct first hand experience of numerous search warrants, under a whole gamut of different legislation, and on the basis of interacting as a police officer with suspects (innocent and guilty) from the entire spectrum of diversity. That is on top of my experience as a human being prior to joining this job, during this job and through my numerous friends who are not in this job. What is the direct experience of people like Lee Jasper, MTG and some of the idiots that have posted on here?
I would never argue that the every single police officer is a paragon of virtue - however I would hotly dispute the alternative view which appears to be that we are a homogenuous mass of stereotypical brutal racist thugs.
Incidentally Melv - the misleading nature and downright mendacity of the "facts" you posted regarding De Menezes make me worry about the way you constructed your PhD thesis. I would hope that, even in Huddersfield, work of that low calibre would fail at the first hurdle with the supervisor if not at the viva.
Tnag0
WE LIE WHEN IT SUITS US, WE ARE A CORRUPT BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHEN WEHEN WE NEED TO BE.
ReplyDeleteWE ARE TOO DAMN LIE!
Acting Deputy Commissioner John Yates
Drugs and firearms? THat sounds like the bent police at the old clapham police station.
ReplyDeleteYou and your blog are out to discredit Smiley Culture.
Looks like your mates on the MET ( who went to Surrey without informing Surrey Police) have picked on the wrong chap this time.
The world is watching and you Police and the IPCC know it.
I believe the Police are 95% decent, but the 5% are rotten dutty scoundrels that the 95% should oust!
'Slam bam jah man here dem fashion Smiley Culture originator more time inna dance he chat pon sound but sometimes he shake out and leave him home town......
No one in the world is perfect, but no one should have a cloud hanging ovcer their death.
RIP SMILEY CULTURE!
No Justice No Peace!
@ Tnag0
ReplyDeleteI keep the rule never to listen to advice from someone unable to spell his name but observe the good manners to hear out their concerns.
MTG
the police force is truly evil and obscene. Yet another death of a black man in police custody, beaten in front of his son:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.voice-online.co.uk/content.php?show=19274
@MTG - Melvin, Trying to score points off a typo is pretty pathetic. I feel the need to say that your intellectual snobbery just makes you sound an obnoxious fool. You seem to think you have more grey matter than most, if not everyone. I can assure you that is not correct. Bigots, such as yourself, have allowed issues to take over their reasoning and common sense. Bigots also suffer from insecurity issues. You really need to try and open your mind and get over it or you will always find yourself surrounded by others who are like minded and disregarded by the majority.
ReplyDelete"You seem to think you have more grey matter than most, if not everyone."
ReplyDeleteHaving more grey matter than Tnago or your goodself is highly improbable but I am grateful for transparent differences in our use of it. Incidentally, I found it worthwhile to pay attention in biology and Latin.
MTG
Great blog and some interesting comments. I have learnt that:
ReplyDelete1. Despite being charged with conspiracy to supply cocaine, Smiley was innocent and would have been proven so had he not killed himself before going to Court. Innocent until proven guilty!
2. The police obviously murdered Smiley and any other outcome of the investigation will be a cover up. Guilty until proven innocent!
3. The family, friends, acquaintances, hangers on and all those people who crawl out of the woodwork when there is a cause have shown dignity and restraint. They are only going to kill police officers, injure police officers, riot or demonstrate if the police are found not to be at fault of Smiley’s death.
4. Dr. Melvin Tosser Gray (rejected Huddersfield Councillor and rejected at his mother’s breast) purports to represent an organisation called Concern4justice. They appear to have a membership of one.
5. South Clapham police are a bunch of bounders.
6. Between 5% and 100% of police are corrupt bastards.
7. The police are always killing black men. In fact they have killed between 311 and 4000 in the last 11 to 30 years but not one of them has ever been convicted.
8. Dr. Melvin Twat Gray (rejected Huddersfield Councillor and rejected at his mother’s breast) started his own blog in 2007, but was again rejected as no one read it. He has since been boring people on other blogs with his ignorant intellectual snobbery ever since.
9. Lex Ferenda has written this blog to try and smooth over this case. He is also jealous that Smiley had a bigger house and presumably bigger penis than him.
10. Some Jamaican mumbo jumbo. (Am I allowed to say that? Could the PC police please comment, it was not covered on my diversity course.)
11. Some people actually believe what they read in the Guardian.
12. Dr Melvin Turpis Gray (rejected Huddersfield Councillor and rejected at his mother’s breast) studied Latin, biology and English to GCSE but reads and comments on the Daily Mail, a paper that is written for ignorant bigots.
It's interesting that as soon as smiley made some money he couldn't wait to leave his "community" behind and move to the white middle class suburbia that is Warlingham.A real class warrior.A real man of the people. Perhaps he didn't want his family live in a crime-ridden area awash with drugs (that he supplied).(Allegedly)( One hit wonder-how did he make his money? Perhaps one of his supporters could explain.)
ReplyDeleteJaded.
I will let the IPCC's Mike Franklin's comments speak for me on this occasion:
ReplyDelete"The idea that a man under arrest at his home during a police search, who dies in these circumstances, would not attract suspicion is unbelievable. There are no independent witnesses. The only others present at the time were four Metropolitan Police officers. The only accounts available are those of four police officers. Anyone who has any experience or understanding of deaths following police contact or deaths in police custody – [how can] anybody - possibly accept that there isn’t more to this than meets the eye?
So there we have the challenge facing the investigation. No eye witnesses, no CCTV, no independent witness evidence – and the evidence of four police officers. So this is not a case that can simply be determined by the evidence of four police officers. Nobody will believe that. It has to be examined, scrutinised, tested by forensic experts, by scientists, by the best people we can get. I know that and you all know that. Nothing else – nothing else – will be satisfactory"
Anybody have a problem with that?
..or... are citizens deemed fair game for any mishap that might befall them if they are considered to be villains by some?
ReplyDeleteFor the sake of Jaded and others who keep raising the issue of the 'conspiracy to supply' charges, whether or not someone is suspected or actually guilty (which one would like to imagine might have been handled justly at the trial)is - or should be - irrelevant to seeking answers to the questions this case.
To suggest (as seems implied here, by some, and in other forums where this crops up) that criminals "deserve what they get" and do not deserve to have suspicious incidents involving police officers subjected to scrutiny, is to undermine the rule of law and the supposed principles of the UK justice system. If such comments are being made anonymously by police officers then I have to wonder what you imagine are doing in your jobs.
I nicked a shoplifter the other day and the evidence is a bit weak.Tell you what,let's go round his house with three other PC's and stab him to death so my success rate at court doesn't get to low.
ReplyDeletePS most criminals don't get what they deserve-which is a long sentence and scorn from their community.
Jaded.
Jaded, you are missing or evading the central point here - again.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't disagree with the proposition that "most criminals don't get what they deserve", either judicially or in terms of their standing in the community. However. What is at stake - if I can re-state it again - is respect for, and condidence in, the rule of law, and in the agents of law enforcement. The principle that all citizens, including member of the police, are equal under the law, and that a person is considered innocent until proven guilty are ones worth defending.
I can understand that it is more than irritating for those at the sharp end of law enforcement on many occasions to see those they believe or know to be criminals to evade justice, but I would prefer that the basic principles of the law be applied impartially.
Rather that than the idea that it might be acceptable for summary punishment to be dealt out by others with no accountability. Or, that if a police officer deems a citizen to be guilty of criminality, and that citizen is then injured or dies following police contact, there is nothing that ought to require scrutiny and at least the openness to the possibility that the officers involved may have acted illegally.
I hold no presupposition of innocence regarding the allegations of "conspiracy to supply" in respect of David Emanuel. I have no access to any information to make any judgement one way or another. Those charges are a completely separate issue to what the current IPCC investigation is about. Even if they were true, he should not have died under those circumstances, and any suggestion that the events should not be viewed with suspicion and properly investigated is absurd.
Speaking as a citizen, I want to be able to have full confidence in the police, and to have no doubts that in their crucial work there might be are operating to other values and standards than those which they are meant to uphold. I want to see the law applied fairly and equally to all citizens of whatever ethnic or cultural or class background. I want to see criminals brought to justice, through due good policing and legal process.
And, while I am at it, I'd like to see the Police given the proper resources and manpower to do their job properly, and for them not to be wheeled out in quasi-military modes as the strong arm of the state where individual officers are subjected to (and expected to dole out)violence.
Utopia here we come, eh. Truth and rights and justice for all. That's all this is about.
Good points above and I understand where you are coming from. My job is the most scrutinised in the country.Everything we do is picked over in minute detail and we act on impulse under pressure which is then analysed to death by armchair generals who haven't done anything more dangerous than changing the toner in the photo-copier.
ReplyDeleteJaded
Understood and agreed Jaded. However, there is sometimes more going on than merely "acting on impulse under pressure". If youare honest, you will acknowledge that.
ReplyDeleteYou and I both know about the corruption issues the force has faced - and who knows what else still waits to surface? You can even see some of your colleagues discussing things that they know are going on in this blog. The official apology about police corruption obstructing the investigation into the murder of Daniel Morgan doesn't go unnoticed and the timing of it could hardly be better in terms of throwing doubts on current events.
I would also be amazed if you don't know some colleagues who might be inclined to throw their weight around sometimes because they have thug and racist tendencies. Where people die following police contact in circumstances that are suspicious, I think scrupulous analysis is absolutely required.
It would be wonderful if we lived in a society where genuine respect is flowing both ways between police and citizens. The reality is that we don't. Going back a couple of generations it would have been inconceivable in the minds fo most people that the police would be anything other that upright and law abiding. There is too much dirty water under the bridge and too much history for that to be the case now, PARTICULARLY in a case such as this one. Trust has been lost for a long time and it will be a long uphill struggle to win it back.
For many people observing, this incident isn't purely about the circumstances of David Emanuel's death. It is the latest suspicious incident at the head of decades of the black community's experience of being policed in ways which have caused serious problems. Well, not quite the latest because there has been the death of Kingsley Burrell-Brown after his alleged beating by three officers in front of his five year old son since, hasn't there?
It only takes one incident like this - and here are two in quick succession - to open the floodgates again because of the history that has been bottled up and never really healed - which is why you are hearing people talking about David Oluwale, SUS and the Brixton riots again. The past doesn't go away, there is a collective memory that holds these issues and joins the dots up every time some new incident occurs. But aalso, it isn't "all in the past". Unless all the black people who are complaining NOW about RECENT treatment by the police are lying, of course.
There is a pattern of history and behaviour by a minority of police officers which appears to repeat itself, and I don't see that it is possible move towards a better relationship between police and community unless the issues are seriously adddressed. It might help the process if all the decent coppers stood up to be counted and broke the culture of silence that still seems to pervade.
Dear Pete, in reply to your points. Firstly why is everything about race? Are there not huge problems of crime in the black community eg operation Trident? Until that community acknowledges this unpalatabe truth then no progress can be made. I think the only divide should be between police and criminals,I have met plenty of decent people of all races etc.
ReplyDeleteSecondly regarding corruption-the Daniel Morgan case was in 1987? Hardly a recent fair example to throw out now.
The police isn't an autonomous organisation,it's made up of 1000s of individuals,all with different views and life experiences.Just because you may have met one bad PC doesn't mean we are all the same.Just the same as I wouldn't stereotype from one bad experience of dealing with a certain type of person.
Jaded
Something just seems to "staged" S.O.C.A needs to be investigating with an independant team and the best profiler they can get, this should not and I hope not, just be left to the IPCC.
ReplyDeleteRace is not a good enough motive in my opinion.
i) Officers not there long enough for a thorough search, so someone else could have been there, all kitchens have a back door.
ii) Officers would have known level of publicity which would potentially occur as a result if they had been responsible, therefore if they were individually or collectively responsible suggests political motive, given what has now followed since. If an officer would kill by this method he would also take payment/reward for such.
iii) Race the only motive hit on after the fact not before. SC hadnt/isnt known to have pending claims in respect race/mistreatment.
However if he did it to himself doesnt mean he intended to kill himself and nothing like a bit of evidence of bad character against the police to get you off a charge. Which could also be used by an officer to get himself off the hook too if an officer was utilised by a third party for advancement or political/monetary rewards.
Much more Id like to add for reasoning of my understandings and the possibilities but this is a basic brief to start.
All feed back welcome from both sides of the fence but not derogatory/personal please as thats just senseless and mindless.
Pete,
ReplyDeleteIn reference to your comment:
"I wouldn't disagree with the proposition that "most criminals don't get what they deserve", either judicially or in terms of their standing in the community. However. What is at stake - if I can re-state it again - is respect for, and condidence in, the rule of law, and in the agents of law enforcement. The principle that all citizens, including member of the police, are equal under the law, and that a person is considered innocent until proven guilty are ones worth defending."
If the police by your meaning, as being equal in law whether individually and or collectively would you then say that the officers involved in this case also have every right to remain silent and not be subject to a lynch mob like any other suspect? This would also include privicy in respect of the press etc.
In response to questions /responses to points I made - in the broadest view, this isn't about race - it is about the community at large having confidence in the integrity of their police force. However, at another level, this very much IS about the way that certain sections of the community are policed, and about the black community in particular.
ReplyDeleteThis is not aboout saying all police are racist thugs and all black people are brulatlissed victims. Quite clearly there are also serious problems of gun, knife and drug crime within sections of the black community which I think is well acknowledged within that community.
It woudl be nice to imagine that all police corruption ceased in 1987. Do you believe that is the case? The reason I mentioned it is to illustrate that the injustices of the past reside in PRESENT collective memory and undermine confidence in the integrity of the police TODAY. When other suspicious incidents occur, people will tend to draw their own conclusion based on past experience. That may be right or wrong, but itis the reality, and it affects the ability of those individual police officers trying to do their job ina decent and upright way. There is enough REAL bad history to give valid reason to be doubtful about the present, and to doubt that enough has really changed, despite the noted efforts to improve since Macpherson and Scarman et al. That's my point.
I fully recognise that the police force exists at a collective level and also at the level of many individual officers. The majority, I would liek to think, are decent people trying to do a mostly thankless and impossible task in the face of absurd bureaucratic requirements, politcial grandstanding and manipulation, disgraceful under-resourcing - you know the score better than I do! That is undermined by the attitudes and actions of the few, at whatever level. Unfortunately when things go wrong because of these, confidence in the whole force is damaged. My observation is that in these kinds of scenarios there is something like a "close ranks" seige mentality that is often displayed by individual police officers, a defensively hostiel stance to crticism and an unwillingness to acknowledge that there are ever any real issues to be concerned about. Ultimately that only contributes to building up the picture in the minds of many that the police (collective) specialise in covering up and don't want to be subject to scrutiny. Ultimately that harms police officers, individually, the police collectively, and also the wider society.
I would agree with the point about equality under the law. I don't want anyone in the UK subject to harrassment and pre-judicial lynch mobs. However, if the four individuals present at the death of David Emanuel had been anyone other than police officers than I strongly suspect that the nature of events played out afterwards would have been very different, particularly in terms of the speed with which they might have been detained and questioned. This in itself undermines public confidence in the process of IPCC investigation in the minds of many observers.
@anonymous 6th April
ReplyDeleteI think you are allowing too many Poirot type theories to try and fuddle what is a simple but tragic case.
There wasn't anyone else there. The police were present when SC threatened them with a knife and then turned it on himself. Whether he meant to kill himself, we will never know.
The police are not keeping silent. The officers involved gave accounts straight away and subsequently to the IPCC. It is for the IPCC to update the family/community/public with the progress of the investigation. It would be completely innapropriate for the police to make any statements until the IPCC have completed their investigation. The IPCC will have been updating the family with progress. The rest of us will have to wait, but not too long I hope.
Your suggestion about political or financial incentives are pure fantasy. I hope that does not offend! Lex
Lex and Pete,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your comments, I am far from offended. However can state I do not watch Poirot, Mis Marple and the like, In fact I would be hard pushed to remember the titles of 3/4 Bond movies! However, departments such as SOCA and the Police for that matter would not exist if we lived in the ideal crime world of those previously mentioned ! Though I feel I must say Jaded's comment in a similar vein to "Oh my court numbers arent up, I know I'll just go and stab the accused" did somewhat make raise the eyebrows !!. Having said that I actually do feel great sympathy for all directly involved in this.
Having said that and in line with my previous comments what concerns me is, articles made which appear to be actually asking for preferential treatment or protocol to be pushed aside in this. The following quotes being an example:
"Jasper said the community is angry that police have allegedly been in contact with various media outlets to speak about how he died, yet Smiley Culture’s family claim to have been kept in the dark regarding the truth surrounding his death.
“The commissioner said he couldn’t speak about details, and yet the day before it was reported in the local Surrey Guardian that a police officer at the aborted trial hearing that took place on the charge of Smiley Culture reported to the judge, ‘Smiley Culture cannot be with us today because he committed suicide by plunging a knife through his heart at his home during a police raid’.
“They can tell the Surrey Guardian that (he stabbed himself), they can tell the judge that; a police officer who wasn’t even at the scene can give that authoritative statement, but yet nobody consulted the Emmanuel family. Nobody can tell them what happened. Nobody can give them a letter of condolence. People are angry and they’re quite right to be angry.”
Jasper added: “It’s hypocritical, disgraceful, the commissioner and the MPA should apologise to the family and we should have an undertaking that those kinds of statements to the public or press – whether they’re in a courtroom or not – should be stopped.
“The commissioner should meet with the Emmanuel family now to tell them exactly what happened. This notion of ‘we can’t speak about it’, you saw him say that, and here we are. We’ve got people standing in court saying ‘Yeah, he stabbed himself, your honour’. You can imagine how distressing this is for the family.”
Which given whom is making such statements, would/should know procedure in these circumstances and therefore giving possible reason for further agendas being relevant pre or post. I also understand the family were informed prior to the announcement in any media. Now forgive me if I am incorrect but once something is in court it is in public domain. Now the officer informing the court is stating what he has been told about the incident, he was not there but apparently he is supposed to give detail beyond that which he knows and which is part of an investigation and how else can he state it ? This does not make sense to me and it seems odd that an apology and explanation is being requested prior to any thorough investigation has occured.
Lex and Pete,
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely no offence taken from any issues raised. However, I do feel I should point out I'm not a watcher of Poirot Miss Marple and the like and would be hard pushed to name beyond 4/5 Bond films! What I can catergorically say is I have the upmost sympathy on both sides of the fence and know from other experiences that this will be difficult for all concerned given the situation.
In respect of fantasy on a political/financial motivation basis. I would not have said that agencies such as SOCA and or the police for that matter would be in existance if, we lived in Miss Marple Poirot ideal crime scenario society and infact crime can be rather sophisticated hence civilians can get away with things, and juries find them innocent even when others including the police do not believe them to be.
In respect of the IPCC it would seem that funeral arrangements are able to be made so all autopsy's required and requested seem to have been done. We will wait for those findings to be made public and we will see if the public inquiry asked for, comes about.
Thoroughly appreciate the open opinions given on the subject. Thank you very much indeed.
This incident has once again exposed police racism for what it is: corrupt, unjust, partial and evil. Your blog is also a bag of filth masquerading as objectivity. The bottom line is this: if a policeman has murdered someone then he should face justice like anyone else. The family of Smiley Culture believes this to be the case. If the police is innocent then they should have nothing to fear.
ReplyDeleteYour very first paragraph contains a dishonest and subject opinions which only serves the purpose of swaying the reader toward the police's obvious point of view. Viz:
"Whatever he may or may not have done..." suggests or implies some element of guilt and/or suspicion.
"...no decent person would have wished harm on him..." implies the police are simply far too descent to have harmed him.
We hope if (or when, should this be the case) the police is found guilty of murdering Smiley Culture, whoever wrote this piece is made to eat a print out of their words. Or worse...
My concerns are in respect of the expected march to take place and arranged before investigation. I feel that more compromises any trial(s)than anything. It could be seen as attempts to sway a jury. Whether peaceful or not. This in itself can work to the against and claims of not impartial etc will be made when it was made that way by those involved. To me the protest should come after the trial/inquest if really unsatisfactory, not before and certainly not arranged before investigations are concluded and in public domain.
ReplyDeleteAs it seems the police are called racist and responsible for deaths in custody. Im not sure of the exact figures/circumstances on that so please no need to hit me down for it, but in order to have balance on that, should this not be compared to murders committed by ethnic minorities (on any race/nationality). This should then be compared to the amounts of those tried, aquitted and or, convicted. These should then be shown by % comparison of minority popululation to draw comparison by the same equation method for the police incidents. Would this not give a fairer picture than either side just simply quoting a figure. I agree before anyone says, that 1% on either side would be 1% to many. But it could afford a little more true a clarity on the issue. These figures may be available so if so, someone point me in the right direction to find them please.
What of course would be variables are the amounts of convictions not shown to be racially brought/served by crimes commited no charge etc. And racial complaints no injury/death in custody.
I do hate to bring mathematics into the subject as though people (thats both sides)are numbers but it can offer a balanced overview of many a problem/solution/accusation. The aforementioned equations are also only a brief example of basic possibles of many available comparisons in various areas of the subject matter. Given that some crimes etc are not even reported/logged.
As has been said before no need to jump down anyones throat on impartial opinion, that does not agree with any individual.
@ anonymous 7th April 1644 - the family have shown a lot of restraint and dignity regarding this death. At the press conference they made a play on words saying that they had not officially been told what had happened. They had been told, but it would have been made clear that this was an initial account and could not pre-empt the investigation. The family will have at least one and probably more liaison officers working for the IPCC, not the police. They will have been told about the statements in Court and any press releases. It must be remembered that this investigation is being carried out by the IPCC. It is not for the police to provide explanations to the family and the IPCC would be hopping mad if the police tried to do this.
ReplyDeleteRegarding letters of condolence or apology from the police, the police may have nothing to apologise for and I think a letter of condolence would be derided by all those critical of the police anyway.
@ anonymous 7th April 2110 - not sure how this has exposed police racism but it has obviously exposed your bigotry. You say if a police officer has murdered Smiley they should face justice. I think we all agree with that. You also say that if the police are innocent they have nothing to fear. I don't think the police have anything to fear in respect of murder charges but we will see what the outcome of the investigation is.
Regarding my comment 'whatever he may or may not have done no decent person would wish him harm,' I fail to see how you perceive that as some implied guilt and the suggestion that the police are too decent to have harmed him, but who knows how your mind works.
I was really trying to say that even if SC was a drug dealer, no decent person would have harmed him. I have worked in the police for many years and with a few exceptions. generally the police are decent people and the suggestion they would kill him is ludicrous to those who really know the police.
I realise this is not what you want to hear and if the truth does not fit your preconceived notions, your thinly veiled threats are noted.
Lex. Were you there ? Because you sound very sure about what happened.
ReplyDeleteMatt, no I was not there but I am aware of the officers account. Lex
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry. There is culture of inpunity for police murder. This sort of thing happens all the time. Perhaps if police where sometimes prosecuted when this sort of thing happend, it would happen less. If you know you can get away with it, certain times of police will be tempted to do it.
ReplyDeleteAlso this is a by product of the useless war on drugs. A war that leads of more crime, a war that gives the establishment the excuse to label a sector of society and harass them.
I would love it if there was a anti police para milltary group that retalited for every murdered that they commited. Perhaps they would be more respectfull of human rights that way.
@anonymous 15th April. I realise I am wasting my time but as you assert that the police are murdering people all of the time, can you give a list of these murders over the last say two years? I assume you mean in this country, or have you been watching programs about the police in Pakistan or Brazil? If the police w(h)ere prosecuted sometimes it would happen less! Has it ever crossed your mind that perhaps the police don't get prosecuted for murdering people because it doesn't happen? Funnily enough, I have never been tempted to murder someone because I thought I could get away with it. I joined the police to uphold the law and make this country a better plsce for you to live in.
ReplyDeleteThe thought of paramilitary groups to deal with criminals has crossed my mind becasue of our ineffective justice system. If every time you felt the police had murdered someone, whether there was any evidence or not, which police officer would you like killed in retaliation? Should we all be worried about a random killing or perhaps any police officer in the area of the 'murder.' Or would you just target the policeman you thought was responsible?
I am just about still respecting your human right to life even if you are abusing and wasting it. Lex
I can't belive that any British Policeman would harm a suspect in these circumstances. the Police put their lives on the line every day, and having toured the world all my life, without doubt we have the most sophisticated police force. This chap was dealing in drugs, what logocal thinking person would suspect them ? Keep up the solid protection of the innocent public against known criminals.
ReplyDeleteAnon (sock puppet) above:
ReplyDeleteRegardless of what others may think, the bigot will always convince himself that he won the argument. He can no more refuse another post to himself when things are going badly than an alcoholic can turn down another drink or self-assess sobriety.
A "bigot" in these circumstances is someone who can't believe a famous black man is a drug dealer.Sometimes our heroes are flawed.
ReplyDeleteThe whole race argument has been ruined by lefties shouting "racist" at anyone who doesn't agree with them.
Jaded
Lex - I guess I'm saying that it's possible that the officers account is accurate, but you must admit that there is a greater than 0% chance that it isn't.
ReplyDeleteIf we've learnt anything after Stockwell, G20, etc etc it's that we can't rely on every officer to tell the truth all of the time, particularly if they've been involved, even unwittingly, in somebodies death. People are people after all.
To have no doubt at all seems a little biased.
Matt, the key issue for me in this case is, did the police stab and murder SC or did he kill himself? I will stake my pension on the fact that SC killed himself.
ReplyDeleteThis is a typical CID job. Ignore any risk assessments, don't bother taking any wooden tops, don't bother informing Surrey Police about the visit. Don't bother handcuffing him, CID can talk to anyone and keep them sweet. 999 times in a thousand it works and they get away with it. This time they didn't.
I have no doubt that the Met Police will come in for some criticism and every word in every officers statement will be pored over and some will try and read into it things that are not there. But did they kill SC? My pension says no way. Lex
So there we have it, folks. Police no different to soccer hooligans. The worst of a public service, prepared to bet their wages and pensions on another outright win for their own team. Armed and foul mouthed, they spare no effort to attack any sign of opposing support with the objective of either discrediting or obliterating it.
ReplyDeleteOh dear anonymous.
ReplyDeleteThe only person who has suggested that Smiley Culture's death is a "win" in ANY way is you.
I take it you are a proponent of the type of debating that requires the screaming of "Racist" or "thug" when you sense you might not have any rational arguments left, and clearly you resort to screaming "Unfair" if the police have the temerity to put forward a case that disagrees with whatever opinion you might have (which I note you don't actually specify).
So there we have it folks, anonymous anti-police critic happy to slag off cops on the back of any topic, rather than make any intelligent contribution, or tackle any of the points raised.
Do you lose many teddies when you have tantrums?
You can generally count on my support, Lex.
ReplyDeleteI supported your sure-win system at the races after you boasted getting tips straight from the horse's mouth. Remember last Summer, when we all lost our shirts and had to walk home from Aintree? What dash bad luck to be the victim of an equine con. Makes you think - well in your case, perhaps not.
Sgt Pilchard
Some interesting points been made. Some however are fantasy at best.
ReplyDeleteI've had dealings with Smiley in the the dim and distant past. Including keeping him alive after his girlfriend stabbed him. Oh, thats right, I forgot to add, I was one of those bend racist cops in Clapham.
So why didn't myself and my colleague shrug our shoulders and let him die? Possibly because like 99% of coppers we were neither.
I doubt of many people who have commented here have ever met Smiley, so I have an advantage over you.
Why wasn't he handcuffed? From my dealings of Smiley, because he was mostly reasonable, and a clown. When someone is like that, you don't wind them up by chucking on the handcuffs, it ends up being counter productive. Even if it doesn't end as a fight, word gets out and the perception amongst people who actually know nothing about policing is negative.
In the millions of searches that have been carried out by Police since I can remember, this is the first time this has happened. No doubt Police will be told to handcuff in future, and no doubt that wont be right either.
Lastly, 2 things. 1, I agree what reason on gods earth would any police officer have to kill Smiley? None I suggest, as I've said, he wasn't a problem to deal with, even when caught with a gun. Secondly, if the quote from the IPCC given earlier is correct, then the 'I' in their title needs to be dropped.
@ Anon bender above:
ReplyDelete"I forgot to add, I was one of those bend racist cops in Clapham".
Delightful. I would never have guessed it.
Jaded sucks black dicks. Lex is a fudge packer.
ReplyDeletePc Hammond
Bow .
No I don't.
ReplyDeleteCan't answer for Lex though.
Jaded.
Just a quick word to some commenters- contrary to what many of you seem to beleive, it is quite frequent for police not to handcuff a suspect during a search of their house for drugs. My neighbour has been raided several times, and is a known heroin/crack user, and because he is always polite and mostly compliant, he is never handcuffed. Similarly, another aquaintance was raided for drugs at 5am some time recently, and was not handcuffed (and turned out to be innocent- a suspect had given a false address).
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying they are generally allowed to walk around unsupervised, but people who are pleasant and co-operative are treated in a more pleasant and relaxed manner by the police- it is not "unlikely" or "impossible" for the police to have allowed Mr Emmanuel to have gone to make a cup of tea.
Good to see Jaded and Lex get some homophobic abuse from the troll.
ReplyDeleteI though it was only 14 year olds that screamed "But you're so GAY!" when they were losing the argument.
Tang0
Take a hundred lines Tnago:
ReplyDelete"As well as lerning to spel I must learn myself of the diferrences bitween that and who, also."
Just to confirm-if a WHITE drug dealing piece of shit killed himself I wouldn't lose any sleep either. If that did happen I don't suppose the community (i.e supporters of drug dealers) would be marching in the streets of Lambeth
ReplyDeleteJaded
Anonymous testimony to a very sick police service is the only good thing resulting from the above cowardly, abusive and obnoxious police comments.
ReplyDeleteSo drug dealers are fine upstanding members of the community are they? I'm sure you would be happy to have one living next door would you? Oh you could be one of course which would explain your stupid comments.....I have to deal with the effects of drugs every single day i'm at work. Anyone that peddles them is sub-human in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteJaded.
I wonder how many peoples lives and their families lives have been destroyed by Smiley's alleged supply of coke...
ReplyDelete"I wonder how many peoples lives and their families lives have been destroyed by...." police corruption, thuggery and fit-ups.
ReplyDeleteNot anywhere near as many as by drug dealing scum.
ReplyDeleteTwo wrongs don't make a right.
Jaded
UNLESS SMILEY SOLD DRUGS TO YOU THEN YOU CANNOT SAY HE WAS A DRUG DEALER!
ReplyDeleteI wonder how many peoples lives have been destroyed by the Police killing their family members? JackF - does the F stand for FOOL?
SMILEY WAS NEVER FOUND WITH DRUGS OR CONVICTED AND THATS A FACT. THERE WERE 5 PEOPLE ( INCLUDING SMILEY) THOUGHT TO BE INVOLVED but whenyou know as many peole as smiley does then you can not vouch for all if them and their movements. SMILEY WAS GUILTY BY ASSOCIATION.
ONE THING WE KNOW IS THE POLICE GOING TO SMILEYS HOUSE RESULKTED HIM HIS DEATH.
FACT.
THE BEAST KILLED SMILEY CULTURE AND JADED IS A BITTER COW.
Please, let us not descend to the level of insulting honest cows.
ReplyDeleteHonest cops are the exception rather than the rule. The scum is thickly encrusted and the stench from Jaded's bathwater are sufficent warnings of a polluted tub.
Melvin, far too clever for me again.
ReplyDeleteI hate all drug dealers.I hate people that support them. Next time you are getting robbed or burgled,don't call me,call a drug dealer to help you.
We will never know if Smiley was guilty or not as he killed himself.Innocent people kill themselves all the time don't they?
Person posting two above,please let us all know how you have inside information about the case.
Also WRITING IN CAPITALS does not mean you are right.
Jaded
When the police execute a warrant to search someone's property, are they expected to restrain (handcuff) people who are in the house? If they don't.... then are they obliged to keep an eye on their 'suspect'? I'm sure that they have a duty of care?
ReplyDeleteI noticed a little further up on here, that somebody mentioned that Smiley was a millionaire..... and perhaps a drug dealer.... that really isn't relevant here. That is no justification for allowing or causing another persons death. I can't do that and neither can the police. Smiley Culture had the same right as a vagrant... the right to life. His bank account isn't an issue here. If this police officer was inexperienced and overly trusting, then he should not have been left in a position where he was responsible for the safety of a suspect or prisoner. I would expect that his senior will have a lot to answer for if that is the case.
I am not 'anti-police' nor am I 'pro-police'. I simply expect the police to do the job they are paid to do and abide by the law. I don't really want to hear what a tough time they have dealing with the after effects of a hard day at the office. That is part and parcel of the job. Its a tough job, but they chose to do it. Nobody forces them. They can leave the job if its too much for them to handle.
I do however believe that people who are considered a step away from middle-class-normality (on the face of it) are more likely to be victims at the hands of a minority of police officers who are no more than bullies. Treat the wife batterer from suburbia like a dog. Treat the chav off the estate like dog dirt. There needs to be a reminder that all of us, from all walks of life, all financial backgrounds, all property bands are entitled to the same service from the police and we most certainly don't expect people to die whilst they are in police custody, no matter if it is in a person's home, a police van or a cell. Demanding answers is understandable and I for one, expect to see some soon.
Great blog, bye-the-way! Contraversial, but good.
Update;Smileys daughter charged with importation of cocaine. Police going to kill her too?
ReplyDeleteMTG I CANT HEAR YOU
Jaded
@ anonymous 19th May - there is no law or code or anything else that says you must handcuff occupants while executing a drugs warrant. The police have the discretion to do it depending on the circumstances. If there are a number of occupants or you believe the occupant will obstruct the search or if they may be violent then handcuffs will usually be used. If there is one occupant and they appear to be amenable you would be hard pushed to justify handcuffing.
ReplyDeleteIf Smiley went into his kitchen and if he was with police officers being supervised, which they state is the case, and if Smiley then picked up a knife and threatened the officers before turning it on himself, then the police may not have failed in any duty of care. It is all about what is reasonable in the circumstances.
The only comments regarding his financial circumstances relate to questions as to where his wealth came from. It certainly didn't come from his singing career. He maintained that he was a businessman trading in gold etc. with various third world countries. Perhaps he was, perhaps he wasn't.
I am afraid that you will find the police slightly jaded regarding non middle class conformity. We are very aware that there are criminals in the middle class and upper echelons of society and many of them are brought to justice. For the average police officer however, you spend most of your life dealing with the never ending demands of the underclass with their drunken brawls and behaviour, domestics, drugs, petty family/neighbour arguments etc.etc. Most of us always start politely and treat people as we find them no matter what background they are from. What usually happens though is you are met by a drunk/drugged, abusive/violent person who gets even more so when they are asked to behave. Unfortunately, that is the real world we live in.
I am afraid that you will continue to see deaths in custody all the time obese, sick, drunk, drugged, violent people are arrested. No one wants a death in custody and refering people to hospital, getting people examined by a doctor is routine business for us. We do our utmost to prevent deaths in custody. Every one is independently investigated. I cannot recall the last time any officer was held responsible.
@ Jaded - Those shouting loudest about Smileys death will never accept he killed himself and, very sadly, appear to support rather than criticise drug dealers in their community. All you hear from them is that Smiley was innocent so presumably fitted up by the police. Are you suggesting this was a family business? I am sure his daughter is innocent too. We will have to see what the jury decide. Lex
If I read it correctly his daughters arrest and charge is connected to the raid in which he died.Which may be why they re-visited his address even though he had already been charged.
ReplyDeleteIf I was being even more cynical-if that's possible-his daughter now has a get out of jail free card by blaming either A stress of her dad's death or B just blaming him as he's not there to refute that accusation.I will be following this story closely as it unfolds,not holding my breath for apologies from the drug/loving community though.
Jaded
It smells, I hope the TRUTH will come out.
ReplyDeleteR.I.P Smiley
Very rare in my experience that the police decide to stab someone to death on a drugs warrant. Not so rare that people react in all sorts of bizarre ways to stress - i've been involved on jobs where the suspect has subsequently taken an o/d after being bailed and it wasn't police officers stuffing tablets down his throat. There are numerous attempts at self harm in prison and again the vast majority are not down to prison officers trying to bump off their charges.
ReplyDeleteAll thecalls about why wasn't this done and that done are again from armchair experts - most times everyone in house is not cuffed and on no end of occasions i've seen people under arrest be allowed to wander round (ok i let it happen once too). Fact is that police officers are human too and you know what every day the thousands of police officers on duty make mistakes (as in the officers who didn't cuff the subject behind his back when transporting him in a patrol car,allowing him to pull the handbrake when it was travelling and kill everyone on board - but again ultimately it was the prisoner who was responsible)
Actually his death is not a tragedy so stop saying that.
ReplyDeleteHe was a drug dealer and he deserved far worse. He profited off the misery of others.
No I do not care about his family, they knew he was dealing and they received gifts from him knowing that dirty money bought them.
So sick and tired of listening to parasites citing the colour of their skin as an excuse.
This should not be a 'Slightly risky subject' it is a subject of right and wrong and on behalf of all hard working and honest members of the black community I take offence at the trash of my society playing the race card with every damn breath.
ReplyDeleteLook at his house and look at his incomings. His career crashed and burned twenty years ago.
You aren't slaves, you are citizens. NO ONE you ever spoke to was ever brought here as a slave. No one you ever spoke to was ever a slave master. They are all DEAD long ago.
The fact you use that as an excuse shows your treason to your own race.
"Actually his death is not a tragedy so stop saying that.
ReplyDeleteHe was a drug dealer and he deserved far worse. He profited off the misery of others.
No I do not care about his family, they knew he was dealing and they received gifts from him knowing that dirty money bought them.
So sick and tired of listening to parasites citing the colour of their skin as an excuse."
What, so the police should be allowed to come into your home and kill you if you are involved in drugs? Hey, man! You got such a civilized idea of justice!
There are real issues of brutality and racism for the Black Community in the UK! That is why! Until the black people of UK can be guaranteed proper justice then this is going to be an issue. I don't think I would like you as a friend with attitides like that! You show much narrow mindedness in your words! Keep on believing the BS, mate! I think you need to look outside of the propaganda of mainstream media! You are a parrot, squalk squalk!
One Love, bless you JAH people. I am sorry they are so mean to you. Just a sick derranged sociey of red necks in the UK! Hah! One dau soon the white people will be the minority and I am sure there will be some comeback after all these years of nastiness! The UK is a mess, a selfish nasty society!
I cant get enough of this blog. Sorry i have not commented til now, but im lazy. Just wanted to eventually say thank you.
ReplyDeleteAnd just why did you feel the need to mention that the guy detained many moons ago was 'white'. Only those present at the scene know the truth but history tells us police officers have a propensity to collude and fabricate accounts. The IPCC is not fit for purpose and is anything but 'independent'
ReplyDeleteI mentioned he was white because it was relevant. Had he managed to kill himself and he was black I might have had to go through what the officers involved with Smiley did.
ReplyDeleteEasy to throw allegations around without any evidence. Can you give any examples of where officers have been found to have colluded and fabricated accounts? I mean proven examples.
You are right, the IPCC is not fit for purpose. They are so desperate to prosecute police officers, to try and prove to criminals and bigots that they are independent, that it is only a matter of time until there is a miscarriage of justice and police officers will be wrongly sacked/prosecuted/jailed.
Does Hillsborough ring a bell?
DeleteAndrew Mitchell? Paper owners?
Have a little think about that.
Yes, I've thought about it for four months. I still don't buy the scenario that the police pushed fans into the ground and crushed them to death. I still think it was fans pushing other fans that caused the tragedy.
DeleteA judge has decided, after hearing all the evidence, that Mitchell is almost certainly a liar and the officer on the gate was telling the truth all along.
Paper owners are sometimes very naughty.
I`m from battersea,
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