Saturday, 11 August 2012

Tia Sharp - Victim of the Underclass?

Tia Sharp

Tonight the body of a person, believed to be the missing 12 year old, Tia Sharp, was found at her grandmother's house in New Addington. The grandmother's boyfriend, Stuart Hazell aged 37, has been arrested on suspicion of murder. He has not been charged or convicted and we need to remember that.

Tia was reported missing last Friday. When she was reported missing a cursory search would have been carried out for clues to her whereabouts. When she had not been found within another 24 hours a further detailed search should have been carried out, followed by forensic searches. The fact that a body has been found at the address a week later will demand some answers. It is possible, but unlikely, that the body may have been moved into the house. The search carried out today was obviously pursued for a reason. It may be that searches were carried out under floorboards or in loft cavities or places not readily accessible which had not been searched before.

I have written previously about the growing underclass in our society. Police officers will not be unfamiliar with Tia's family set up. Unfortunately, this is all too common nowadays. Grandmother, Christine Sharp, aged 46, living in social housing, unkempt garden, broken gas/electric meter box. Mother, Natalie Sharp, aged 31 (you do the maths.) Natalie was Stuart Hazell's girlfriend before he moved on and began a relationship with her mother.

Stuart Hazell

Stuart Hazell is a persistent offender with more than 30 convictions including for theft, burglary, handling stolen property, dealing crack cocaine and an attack with a machete.

We have a growing population of young women who lack any ambition and who have role models whose aim in life appears to be to have a child, gain social housing and avoid work. (Christine Sharp was working.) These women seem to be attracted to the most feckless and irresponsible men. They seem to be unable to exist without a man in their lives. There appears to be a large group of men who invariably have drug and/or alcohol issues, commit crime and often seem to be perpetrators of domestic abuse. These men are often homeless and just 'do the rounds' moving in with these needy and vulnerable women.

As these men move around more and more progeny are added. The police and other services spend huge resources dealing with the domestic abuse, crime, drugs and alcohol issues. Eventually, the man moves on to another partner and it all starts again.

The risk to the children that these men bring cannot be overstated. Many are violent and drugs and alcohol are usually serious issues. Some will be sexual predators. The women don't seem to consider this when they move the next boyfriend in. It seems anyone is better than being on your own for these women.

This underclass behaviour has increased as liberalism has prevented criticism of the 'lifestyle choice' of these women and men and they have become adept at using the welfare state to ensure we all pay for their lifestyle. Peer pressure to deter this sort of behaviour has all but disappeared and is encouraged in the underclass world. We will find out soon whether or not Tia was a victim of this underclass way of life.


  1. Hang the bastard...after he has a fair trial of course.

  2. No nonsense and common sense piece.

  3. What would some of your other addled commenters do to alleviate the underclass problem and so reduce appalling crimes of this nature - all very predictable in a nebulous, generalistic way? Comeon Mr Poxted, lets have a pronouncement - and don't make us laugh, for this is serious and includes you.

  4. I started reading with high hopes. Hazell does not strike me as the sort of person I wish to spend time with but then again after visiting an EDL site neither do the police. Electric meter? Damning evidence Lex. I know of flats in Belfast with no electricity. The ineptitude of the police here is massive "unlikely but possible" he walked around with a dead body. You really are a total (cont p.9).

  5. Underclass? People from this same community spent the last week walking the streets, distributing flyers, organising themselves into community groups to search the area. These people, especially the young people are a tribute to the values of community solidarity. Don't be so quick to dismiss this community as a feral underclass.

  6. David,

    I don't know whether everyone on that estate is 'underclass', but they may well be. When I grew up on a council estate in the 70's/80's, the community was decent working class and maybe there were still a few of these people in Tia's immediate vicinity.

    But - and this is an uncomfortable thought - might it be that the underclass can be motivated to action by drama and intrigue and reporters and media interest? They are less motivated by the effort required for mundane respectability.

  7. BBC did not show the near riot as angry punters, oops underclass castigated plod for their piss poor "work".

  8. ... and the vigilante groups that have been breaking into people's property in the search for Tia will merge into a mob outside the police station, baying for the alleged killer's blood. Feral mob rule in a morally bankrupt environment that makes 'Lord of the Flies' seem civilised.

  9. Anon you have a point, I am waiting for a molotov to be lobbed a plod and a resuming of last years "riot" uprising so I can come out of exile.

  10. I agree with you entirely.

    Grandma had mother when she was 15. Mother goes on to have Tia. Both women also have children by other men. Convicted crack dealer lives with mother, and then moves on to Grandma. Real Dad of Tia nowhere on the scene. Because convicted crack dealer is shacked up with Grandma, it appears ok to leave a 12 year old girl, and not a blood relative, with the convict. Underclass men like this convict often gravitate to women with children. Why? Because they have a council house! Therefore underclass convict can live pretty much free while picking up benefits and doing a bit of something on the side, whether it be handling stolen goods, drug dealing, etc.
    This is not rare - far from it. If the government needs to poke around in people's lives, it need to start with the rotten underclass. Children are a by-product of this way of life who will go on to repeat the behaviour they have seen around them since birth. RIP Tia.

  11. @ CI Roller Dude - ditto!

    @ anonymous 1034 - the liberal handwringers will be demanding more social workers, more support, better housing Etc. to give these people yet more resources which the taxpayers cannot afford.

    We need to stop rewarding poor behaviour which dishes out housing, benefits Etc to those that think a life of not working and procreating at the taxpayers expense is acceptable.

    @ David - not everyone on these estates are the underclass, who are still just a growing minority. Many decent people will have been helping and hoping that they could find Tia. There is nothing like the scent of a child molester/murderer to agitate the working man/woman.

    The underclass will have come out and had a fag while the cameras were around and then gone back in to watch Jeremy Kyle. The only program featuring people they understand. They have no motivation to work even in these circumstances.

    The community searching garages and sheds in the area were not welcomed by all and one man threatened them with a weapon when they entered his garage.

    Anonymous 1218 - there will be no march on the police station or repetition of the retail riots. This is a different community.

  12. I work with victims od domestic abuse and can only agree with your very accurate description of our growing underclass. Needy, vulnerable women who keep getting into abusive relationship with men who seem to be after a fuckbuddy and a place to stay, demands that I find them a new council house because the neighbours give them evil looks, demands that I get them panic alarms, thousands of pounds in benefits ("I get paid tomorrow" coming often from somebody who has never worked a day in their life), Facebook arguments, - welcome to my world. Shame their numerous children grow up thinking that this is an acceptable way to live and treat others.

  13. I hasten to add that for all the above reasons I always support social services when their go for a court order to remove children from such "unconventional" families as this in vast majority of cases seems to be the only way to rescue them and give them a chance to have a decent life in the future.

  14. To Ron at 10.57

    Have you got learning difficulties or something?

    An electric meter isn't evidence of much in itself but would you accept that if you add multiple drug convictions, broken glass, underage pregnancy, multiple fathers etc then a reasonable assumption can be made?

    If I arrive at a house, and there is a shopping trolly in a scruffy garden, there is missing glass in some of the windows and a topless man answers the door whilst smoking a roll up I have the right to make a whole bunch of initial judgments. If in time they are either confirmed or contradicted then so be it.

    As to police incompetence- thats hardly been indicated thus far. Lex has explained the normal procedure and an initial floorboard search is only done after the cursory one hasn't yielded anything and the person is still missing.

    Ironically you would be the 1st to bleat and swear at police if they took up your floorboards as part of their job.


  15. Apparently police dogs gave no indication when brought in earlier in the investigation for a search. If they don't indicate then the house isn't pulled apart.
    Is it inconceivable that the body had been located elsewhere? Or the dogs simply got it wrong?
    In any event I feel entitled to judge the family's arrangements. Looks and sounds pretty grim to me.

  16. 1. Cohabiting is not good for one's social welfare benefits so your argument is flawed.
    2. Special Branch did indeed dig up my floorboards they are utter (cont p.9)
    3. I have posted a now banned video of the police interview on my award winning blogge "After Watt" (squaddies half price).

    1. Can you just clarify what award your blog has ever won? Is there a new award called the Marie Celeste by any chance?

  17. Dogs can only smell so much decay before their olfactory system shuts down and there must have been an abundance of decay about that man.

  18. As to the Tia Sharp debacle, it now seems that plod searched the ROOM where her body was 24 hours after she went missing. Now we know why police wear helmets shaped like tits!

  19. Good for you Broxted. At least by posting the video you are doing your bit to help Hazell avoid a fair trial if he is ever charged.
    Still at least it can never be said that you haven't done your bit to assist (alleged) child killers.


  20. I understand what is meant by 'underclass' It does not relate to hardworking persons, as well anyone knows reading this statement.
    The police will have more to deal with in the future...
    Why? Education, is being dumb down, have a look at the Westbrook PRU 14yrs-16yrs In Bury St Edmunds..teachers paid by the hour and pupils just being tutored, no responsibility? Paying females to have a baby,means a house/flat and life time income, not an emergency stop gap.

    These unnurtured young people, will not be getting a chance to recognise education is the way out.

    I believe the level of underclass will increase. Mindless violence and killing will increase.
    Should people be sterilised for behaviours? (They did it in Sweden in the early part of the 1900's)? Should people be put to death for behaviours. ( People say what can anyone really do to me. Prison, I will get three square's, all my medical and a roof over my head) Mental hospitals were places you did not want to go (People were locked up for life)
    We are so liberal that these evil deeds do and will continue to go unpunished to fit evil.
    However we have to now have this underclass living next door...or in the next street or town...ect.

    The police cannot be held at fault when dealing with EVIL and that is what has unfolded pure evil. I think we need to support these police who have been subjected to the evil company of the murders of Tia, a child we have lost to EVIL? My Thanks to each and everyone who searched or were one of the professionals who were fooled by evilness.

  21. It is called "free speech" Tango and I would not expect you to grasp the concept. Now go back to sleep.

  22. Silly me Broxted, I should have realised that your right to "free speech" was more important than a fair trial or obtaining justice for a murdered little girl.

    It's a good job we have well educated and experienced experts like you to weigh up and decide on the niceties of free speech versus a fair trial.


  23. Preferable by far to have me weigh things up than you fit up Reynolds for the Bowman murder;)

  24. Learned Council11 August, 2012 21:11

    The banned interview now posted on the cocks blog will have no affect on any trial. Any judge asked to rule on it will realise that nobody reads that shite.

  25. Excellent post Lex,all points spot on.
    I went to one of these house recently and I said to the woman "is that the best you can do?" referring to her scumbag new partner.She just shrugged.She was getting regular slaps,he contributed nothing to the finances of the house and didn't help with the kids (not his obviously).She would rather be part of a dis-functional relationship than be single.

  26. Jade it is dysfunctional and once just once we would like plod to say "Yes we got it wrong". You are not infallible you are not the Pope. The whole "Never apologise, never explain" schtick has worn thin.

  27. Half-wit above,I think the area commander has apologised.
    You do realise that police didn't kill this girl,no matter how much you would like that to be true?
    As I mentioned earlier if the scumbag raped her I presume you will be defending him?

  28. Learned Council11 August, 2012 23:07

    No one will be more pleased than the half wit if the offender gets away with raping/murdering this young girl.
    This joke believes that getting away with crime and having one over on plod is everyones duty. Supporting child murdering paedophiles goes with the territory for this twat.

  29. Hey Ron, are you in fact cleverly garnering support for police, or are you just ignorant to the way in which the world perceives you?

  30. It's good to generalise, but of course you forgot to look at it the other way around - that there are sad pathetic men who can only aspire to have women like these in their lives.

    A (horrible) mother type figure.

    Anyway, won't you all be shocked when you find out it was the grandmother who killed Tia, the neighbour provided an alibi to say she wasn't there when it happened, hence his arrest, and Hazell has been the sucker because he's frightened of losing a catch like Christine.

  31. You're a sick bunch. Firstly, the conditions of people's homes is frankly none of your business. If you all live in palatial mansions with neatly trimmed lawns, that's great for you. It's not everybody's reality.

    Secondly the existence of a "feral underclass" is nonsense. Some of the neighbours who have come out include a professional photographer and 2 chartered surveyors. As far as I am aware (although I am unable to be fully snobbish), these are respectable professions. People are people, who live on top of people. So-called "sink estates" are not actually home to hoards of drug-abusing, child-abusing, terminally unemployed. Sure they do tend to live in such conditions, but it is not the only reality. If it was, nobody would ever leave.

    Thirdly, you mourn the passing of an "innocent". It's terrible, it's awful, it's horrific. But in a few years, had she lived, she would be what you despise. If you are born with no really positive role models you chances of advancing up the class ladder are next to none. It takes an exceptional spirit, and often a teacher who believes in the child to get out of the shit they are born into. You seem to attach blame to these people, but generation after generation know no other way. It is not because they have had it easy, learnt that benefits pay, but because the roles that they would have traditionally taken - coal miners, steel workers, car builders etc - were all sent out to foreign shores under the management of Thatcher. You're left with a massive community of unemployed, undereducated, unskilled young men & there's nothing on the horizon. They do what their friends do & turn to crime & drugs. It is sad, whether or not you think it's liberal to recognise this or not. That doesn't bother me one iota.

    My instincts on this case tell me that someone - probably Hazell - snapped & went too far. Then she was dead. I believe this can happen in any social strata, and is due to lack of control more than anything else. The ridiculous, concocted circus that happened afterwards shows their stupidity rather than their cunning, I think. They thought they could get away with it. But they were never going to. This story could have happened anywhere with people from every class. The details of their living arrangements just make it into the kind of Soap Opera where armchair enthusiasts can feel superior & clever compared with the car crash fools. This is one of the worst voyeuristic traits of all.

  32. Anonymous at 2012 00.40 - that is probably the best comment I've ever read anywhere on any blog - sincerely - bravo!

  33. Maximum strength funk.

    That’s right everyone, Shanky’s back: please, hold your applause and moderate all gasps of appreciation as best you can…really, there’s no need to stand…ladies, please…

    Ah Lex, you got SERVED there! Yes you did. You got served hard: prison-hard. That anonymous comment writer (whose opening gambit begins: “You’re a sick bunch.”) schooled not only you, but all those who fecklessly endeavour to advocate your horrifyingly simplistic views.

    And it made me smile.

    Anyway, to recapitulate on the previous thread, I never argued that the rioters were right to be looting, Lex. I merely wished to impress upon you the overriding point about higher echelon lawlessness polluting and permeating society all the way through until it stifles the will, poisons the mind and ignites a rage. But as you clearly don’t understand or accept the relationships between economics and social deviancy, I realise that I may as well be arguing with a mannequin operated by a hypnotised clown, himself controlled from a distance by a hypnotist with a hateful Napoleon complex on him, for all the difference it makes.

    Erm, I shouldn’t forget “Socrates.” Hello Socrates. I read your comment and found it to be a gauche nonsense. For example, bias is not a disease and therefore has no “symptoms.” You mean “evidence of bias,” maybe, although your meaning, for me, is hard thing to discern at the best of times due to your sub-literacy and your seeming contempt for the structural integrity of the theme. Your “symptoms” of my “bias” reads more like a poor definition of rhetorical devices rather that an elucidation of my own obvious “bias.” And what was that about “smart parasite(s)?” I think you meant “more highly adapted” parasites as parasites have no brains (just a nervous system) and are as a result incapable of being “smart,” as you put it. “Nature’s judgement?” Christ alive, what are you talking about? Nature is passive, with no judicial role. Ordinarily I’d take someone like you apart one clause at a time, but it’s not worth the minimal effort required to dilute my words down to this comfortably consumable register that I figment for faux-intellectual grunters like you.

    One last thing to Tang0 and the like: those who care not about freedom of speech are invariably those with nothing to say.

    I am Shanky: the best man currently in existence.

  34. Where on earth did you get the information that says Stuart Hazell has 30 something previous convictions? I've not seen this reported, did you make this up?

  35. @ anonymous 0040 - your take on this simply highlights the problem in my view.

    No one is suggesting that everyone has to have neatly clipped lawns and a sparkling clean house to be decent law abiding people. For those that regularly deal with offenders, when you arrive at an address and disorder and mess greets you, it is often a sign of the whole lifestyle of those within.

    I have sat in meetings discussing offenders where some have defended peoples 'choice' to live in disgusting unkempt conditions. It isn't a choice they have made. It is a sign of malaise, disfunction and lack of pride in anything they do.

    No one said all the people living in this area are feral underclass. Of course there are many decent people living in the area but talk to them and you will find their lives are blighted by the behaviour of some. Talk to them and you will hear they are fed up with their neighbourhood being dragged down by that behaviour and yes, the state of the house provided by the taxpayer.

    Your third paragraph, of course, really shows your cards. It is all the evil Margaret Thatchers fault. No mention of the liberal policies of subsequent governments almost bankrupting the country.

    We understand that this girl was likely to end up like her mother and grandmother. That was the whole point of the post.

    It is easy to blame the behaviour on the lack of job opportunities but that is bunkum. We have employed almost 2 million immigrants in this country over the last five years but the numbers of unemployed natives has barely changed.

    The issue is that liberal attitudes to the problem are simply ensuring that this cycle continues. Our justice system rewards criminals and our social welfare system rewards those whose lethargy and mentality draw them into this way of life.

    Of course this could have happened in any household. Sexual predators and murderers are not confined to the underclass. Another point of the post was to highlight that the way these sad women move potentially dangerous men in and out of their lives puts their children at more risk than others.

    What I really despise about all this is that decent hard working people are expected to pay for this irresponsibility without comment.

    A little petty, but as you have suggested we shouldn't criticise their choice to live in a slum; after this incident you will find this family moved out of the area for their own saftey. They will be given a newly decorated house, paid for by us, and their current house will have thousands spent on it to bring it back to a fit state of decent habitation.

    If the liberals want taxpayers to pay for the behaviour of others then we have a right to criticise and comment.

  36. @ anonymous 0941 - Hazell's previous convictions were in the public domain for anyone reading the Telegraph a few days ago. I did not reproduce them from any police source. Probably best left now as Hazell has been charged.

    Ah Shanky, bless you. I don't know what you are on but perhaps I need some.

    I think I understand the relationship between social deprivation and crime. The police spend most of their time on social housing estates dealing with the drugs, alcohol, domestic abuse, scraps, facebook spats Etc.

    There has been much talk during the Olympics of the police re-engaging with the public. All that has happened is that the police have been interacting with the middle classes. Something they generally don't do. The only time the police visit the leafy suburbs is to attend the latest burglary.

    If last years retail riots displayed thousands of unemployed breaking into Tesco's because they were hungry I could understand your point. The riots involved a significant number of employed. It involved a majority with significant previous convictions. We have had a system for too long that rewards rather than punishes and deters crime.

    I agree with you entirely that we have become morally corrupt at every level. Business, politicians, they are all out for what they can get. I have criticised this elsewhere and suggested change. This behaviour is not a good example to others but it is no excuse. We should decry poor behaviour at all levels and not reward or excuse it.

    We can make all this very complicated. I've read the theories and it is easy to find excuses for offenders behaviour. We can even go in for the self flagellation of some and blame ourselves for not doing more to help the disenfrachised. Etc.

    I believe that it can be very simple. By deterring rather than rewarding crime and poor social behaviour we can encourage more people to move away from their disfunctional and wasted lives.

  37. Shanky,
    I imagine the irony of you trying to criticise someone else's use of English is entirely lost on you. Maybe it's because you only have a nervous system not a brain (clearly not a biologist then).
    Still you keep "figmenting" away.

    As for "free speech" - I have never argued against it.
    Perhaps you could clarify the "free speech" argument in favour of someone entirely unconnected with the case replaying a TV interview with a person charged with murder against the rights of the defendant to a fair trial and the rights of the dead little girl to see some kind of justice.


  38. 30 0dd convictions? Remember the police and truth diverge, hence Cardiff 3, B'ham 6, Guildford 4, Kizsko, George, Stagg, et al.

  39. @Lex: the point about Thatcher is that by her hand you have massive communities of unemployed males. This has been continued by successive politicians, true, but she set the wheels in motion. This is different from unemployment figures per se.

    The rest of your response is just prejudice & bigotry, & you're doing nowt but joining in the collective name-calling & judgement. I agree there is a problem with lack of pride. Taking benefits away from people won't suddenly invoke pride. Treating people like dogs won't invoke pride. Thinking the worst of people & describing them in revolting terms won't invoke pride. Like any culture clash, change has to be instituted from both sides of the divide.

  40. Im old enough to recall the 80s.

    Thatcher may be as mad as a balloon but she did improve the country economically.

    The unions were killing us and the mines were unsustainable- it was a sensible commercial choice which was largely popular- hence 3 election victories.

    She also, on average, reduced unemployment.

    Whilst I lament the obliteration of the uk manufacturing industries the unions have as much blame there as politicians.

    As to 'underclass' what Lex describes is very accurate- as an ex teacher I recognise it very well.

    We now have 21yo women with 4 kids by 4 different dads- and they are finanically rewarded for doing so. Lex is saying we need to break the cycle- are you seriously denying he is wise on this?

    I quite liked the controversial scheme last year of an organisation that offered to pay drug users to be sterilised to save the state money, crime and grief in the long term.

    Its extreme, but given the extreme problem extreme measures need to be taken and it was ultimately voluntary.

    There perhaps needs to be a different uk approach to underage pregnancies or pregnancies in poverty/dangerous conditions.

    Maybe rather than individual council homes we should have large institutions with strict rules. Young women would not like the discipline and the children would be far better protected. Males would have limited access and drugs and alcohol would be prohibited. This would far better protect the children and would remove the attraction of council houses.

    Its certainly worth an experiment. Im also for lowering child benefits but have voucher systems so feckless parents have to spend vouchers on school clothes, vegetables, rent etc and not ciggies, alcohol and drugs.

    Im also absolutely in favour of people having to earn their benefits - from road sweeping, to assisting the elderly, etc, even its only 3 days a week- what could be fairer?


  41. Broxted or whoever you are today-do you know why you can recite those names? Because miscarriages of justice are so rare.You forgot the Sheffield One as well.......and the Renault 5.
    As for the post regarding the underclass-we are entitled to an opinion as decent people like me pick up after them.

  42. There used to be a sense of pride and responsibility, and the overwhelming motivation for the less well-off to do the best they could in the hope that their children would prosper and have happy lives. I don't know about the rest of you, but my working class parents were deeply invested in my welfare, and made a lot of personal sacrifices to make sure I had a good start.

    I'm not saying that poor people with children don't love them, but I imagine if you asked some what they'd do if their benefits were suddenly stopped, there would be a collective scratching of heads amid the howls of protest of unfairness. Certainly there are genuine cases where people need support, but it occurs to me the way the system is designed is for the benefit of those who have barely or never worked, as opposed to those who have contributed but suddenly find themselves involuntarily unemployed or disabled. Anybody else notice how the government has been targeting contribution-based benefits (JSA and ESA)? Know why that is? Because they know that people who worked most or all of their adult lives want to work, and those who didn't may not. And those who don't want to work are protected by human rights legislation (forced labour). Of course there are forms of social engineering no humane society would ever consider. But over time, successive governments have encouraged a different type of social engineering through tax and benefit policies which discriminate against the working and middle classes. They can and should do something about it, and quickly. And in my opinion, this government is going about it the wrong way by targeting contribution-based benefits for the involuntarily unemployed.

  43. Liberty is the foundation of any just society....Just don't expect to enjoy your liberty by pimping off my taxes.


  44. If you haven't contributed to the pot, you're 'entitled' to diddly squat. You are responsible for the welfare of any children you produce.


  45. @ anonymous 0040 and 1139 - I don't know where you live or what line of work you are in, but the fact that you deny the very existence of an underclass in this country tells me that you are not in touch with reality.

    That is the problem with many liberal commentators. They are reasonably intelligent and live nice middle class existences but they have no idea of the outcomes of the policies they espouse which manifest themselves in communities that do not affect the policy makers.

    I would urge you to spend some time with the police on any one of the social housing areas. You will speak to honest hard working decent people whose lives are blighted by a growing mumber of underclass.

    The underclass are now in their third and fourth generation of social housing, benefits, children by multiple fathers Etc. Education, social policy, welfare policy, judicial policy Etc. is not altering this behaviour. It is getting worse. Increased drug usage and all these failing policies are failing the underclass and their victims.

    The riots last year, sparked by Mark Duggans death, were a wake up call which seems to have been forgotten already. The riots showed the growing number of people prepared to offend given the opportunity. They are very well aware that the police are struggling to keep a lid on this boiling pot.

    It is you and like minded fools responsible for these car crash idiots. You are being asked to acknowledge the problem and do something about it. Your response is to ignore or deny the problem which allows it to grow unabated.

    Thatcher made some grave errors during her administration but sorting out the unions was one of her successes. It was not her that destroyed manufacturing in this country it was the unions with their outdated and uncompetitive practices.

    Manufacturing was almost a lost cause in this country with the rapid growth and competition in the third world and particularly the Far East. This manufacturing decline would have happened under any Government of the period.

    Thatcher actually left the country in a very good economic position and this has subsequently been squandered by feckless liberals throwing money we don't have at failed social policies.

    I don't think Lex has ever suggested that we simply take benefits away from people or treat them like dogs. I think what he is suggesting is that the benefit system is changed so that is does not encourage or reward this lifestyle. I would like to see conditions on benefits. i.e. We will give you this if you do xyz.

    The whole benefit system that should be a safety net for those who cannot work or support themselves in some way has simply become a way of life for some people. You seem to want these failing people to continue to fail rather than lead useful worthwhile lives.

  46. Straight funk. Only the funk.

    Shanky’s arriving. I’d better put on the brakes. There we are…

    Hello Tang0. I read your attempt and, well, I kind of laughed or chuckled or something similar, like a snort that was part laughter and part contempt, but forced out entirely through the nose making my nostrils vibrate and producing a kind of farting sound. You know what I mean, right? Anyway, world-class idiocy is my quick-fire synopsis. For one, your last sentence was a train-wreck. Whatever meaning you think is there that shines so brightly from inside the milky eyes of that baffled, growling retard that is the visual representation of your mental process is not, in reality, successfully communicated by those words of yours arranged as they currently are.

    Irony? Imagine how you’ll feel sometime in the future when finally you “get irony.” I am perfectly happy with my use of language, too. Language evolves through improper conjugations which is a superbly apt metaphor, wouldn’t you agree? Thankfully you offer nothing new to our rich and excellent lexicon. I use my words like a palette of paints; you use yours like a hammer and chisel, banging away at a sculpture of sand…

    I am Shanky: the best there ever was.


  47. @ anonymous Jx - your thoughts mirror those of many people.

    I work with social services, YOT, Probation, Local Authorities Etc. These organisations are infested with naive people who think there is, or should be, a bottomless pit of resources to 'help' the underclass.

    What they don't seem to understand is that the underclass are adept at getting something for nothing and will take everything offered without return and carry on as they were.

    There needs to be tough love and nothing should be given without something in return.

    If you suggested to the current powers that be your thoughts on institutions or hostels, voucher systems and working for benefits you would be scoffed at and treated as an ignorant fool.

    It is those attitudes that have got to change before we can start making inroads into the underclass.

  48. Dear Shanky,
    If you want to use words "like a palette of paints" - which I imagine is your explanation for making up words and using nouns as verbs and similar- then you look like a bit of (at best) a hypocrite when you start trying to critically parse Socrates' English.

    I notice you appear to have a default position of florid ad hominem abuse rather than actually addressing any questions.
    so - do you have a free speech argument in support of Broxted or are you just spouting nonsense?


  49. Shanky "better than Broxted" outrage.
    Today in Parliament questions were asked about how Shanky was better than El Magnifico. Now over to our political correspondent Seamus O'Lephrachaun. "BBC1 are going to show a programme on the Cardiff 3 but who cares? Plod are a sick joke at best. Now, back to you, Vicky".

  50. Shanky:

    Although you are not offensive as such you seem to be trying awfully hard to appear clever, but just coming across as insecure, petty and vacuous.

    Are you willing to contribute to the debate?

    Or have you an axe to grind with the "Plain English Campaign"

    ps when Bolt says he's a legend I squirm a bit as really he should leave such compliments to others- however at least he has an accomplishment to boast about- but why do you think you need to say you are the 'best ever'- has nobody ever told you it makes you look silly?


  51. Dear Ronnie B,
    I notice you are still avoiding any explanation for providing alleged child killers with defence opportunities. Doubtless in your bizarre logic the mere feeling that you might be "sticking it to the man" (which, incidentally, you are not) justifies disrupting a fair trial for a murdered little girl.


  52. I do wish you'd get over the liberal handwringers thing a bit, Lex. It makes you sound more like Broxted than I think you realise.

    There are some things utterly necessary for life and you'll find them listed in this order of importance in most survival training:


    All of these things ought to be provided by any civilised society in that order of importance, so I can't agree with the idea of increasing the homeless population. which is what's going to happen with current benefit cuts. The fact that 'shelter' is the most hideously expensive thing in our society is not a good indicator for us.

    The benefits situation does doubtless need fixing. While we should be providing those four things, we shouldn't be providing lots of consumer goods for nowt - you ought to have to work to get the flat screen TV, etc. There should be the jobs available to do so as well, which is where we fall down too - not enough jobs are suitable for the unskilled.

    I have no doubt the underclass exists - I grew up on a council estate, I'm part Roma. The damage done by the lowest of scrotes may be considerable, but I think it can be largely fixed with an application of willingness that is not wholly punitive. There's a middle ground between 'let them have everything' and 'let them have nothing'.

    The damage wrought by the uberclass, however, is far greater. A family of scrotes may blight a neighbourhood. Ministers and Businessmen of sufficient stature can blight hundreds of thousands of lives at home and abroad. They are the bigger evil, by far, when they misbehave - yet they are not as despised as some feckless fool living on benefits and I don't understand why they aren't given at least the same level of bile.

  53. Women control social housing, so a single man will remain long term homeless unless they form strategic alliances with an underclass womb. The price might well be a "benefit pregancy". It's like insects forming symbiotic relationships with their hosts, and just as temporary. Let single men have ready access to social housing and the need to father children for a roof over your head goes away.

  54. Tango I hear that any reporting of Tia Sharp is contempt of court. I feel a song coming on!

  55. Dear Ronnie,
    Why? Do you actually have a reason?


  56. I have just been watching a bbc2 documentary called 'the riots in the rioters words'.

    It shows actors reading out actual interview transcripts from convicted rioters.

    Blimey, I didn't think it was possible for me to hold a lower opinion of the rioters but it did just that.

    Some were just immature and stupid. But some, dear oh dear, I hate the word scum- but here its entirely just.

    Just nasty, violent, selfish scum.


    ps turns out 75% of the rioters had prior convictions- what a surprise (sigh)

  57. Welcome to our world Jess. I am afraid when you deal with these people day in, day out it turns you into a cynical old git.

  58. @ Metaldog - OK I agree I have been banging on about the liberal handwringers a little too much but they are the problem.

    I am not suggesting we start throwing people out of their houses wholesale or stopping all benefits. Having said that there has to be consequences for poor behaviour.

    We have got to break this growing cycle where we have girls getting pregnant, which ticks the box for being given housing. I can suggest alternatives that would discourage others form being so irresponsible.

    Regarding benefits, I would want part time work from longer term claimants and attendance at training and education courses. Failure to work or attend training would result in benefit cuts. There would be similar penalties for anti social behaviour and damage to state provided property. In only extreme cases would that mean eviction.

    I hear what you say about business and Government. You have to remember that this is a police blog and we see on a daily basis the underclass and the effects of their behaviour on communities. The liberal policy makers do not live in those communities and so do not have to live with the outcome of their experiment.

    I have reviled on this blog some of our politicians and businessmen who have the morals of alley cats. I do not condone or ignore that behaviour. I do not understand how voters are so stupid as to allow them to get away with it.

    A poor example from our leaders may adversely influence but we should not allow it to excuse poor behaviour at all levels.

    I read Guido Fawkes and he does his best to keep some of our politicians in order.

  59. Mr Ferenda, I have been following your blog for a while and I came across this online; my immediate thought as I was reading it was that the author of the article sounded like you. Do you agree with the view this retired copper advocates?


    (Shanky arrives to a truly memorable standing ovation as he is both deeply and profoundly loved by all…)

    Ah Jess, sorry to be a bore. If ever there was any doubt, I am pretty smart, but fret not as I expend very little energy in my ruthless demonstrations of it. I only use the tools I have at my disposal to communicate meaning as best I can. If that’s too much for the casual punter then, with a little deduction, you may infer that my wit and my moxie aren’t necessarily intended for casual consumption.

    Yeah, I like to show-off a bit: divide a crowd. I do this for my own entertainment, like when making statements like: “I am Shanky: the best there ever was.” I had a few other similarly themed sign-offs: that one just happened to be the one that I went with at the time. No doubt I’ll come up with something ludicrous to end on this time, as I am, after all, certainly the best there’s ever been.

    In truth, I see no real debate here. Ferenda has his detractors and proponents, but they seem only to wish to score points off each other while regurgitating spellbindingly retarded clichés and tautologies. The purpose of debate is to generate discourse but there is only disconnect here, although it’s nothing more than I expected. So, if you follow, I don’t really feel like I’m spoiling anything when I choose to riggidy wreck myself. I’m sorry you believe me to be insecure, petty and vacuous, Jess, but these failings of mine are no greater than my ultimate failing: my desire to please women, to satisfy them. That aside, I’ll debate you if you want to be debated.

    I am Shanky: sleekest of all the panthers, prowling in a world of cats.

  61. I will concede that at the extreme ends, liberalism is 'a' problem =) Left, right or wherever if you take it to extremes it becomes unbalanced and damaging.

    What we really need is the compassion of the left perfectly blended with the pragmatism of the right, but even if we got that perfect mix, I doubt it would solve all our problems because the rich/poor divide is just too damn big and getting bigger. /Everywhere/ that happens, there's social decay. We really should fix that first, I think.

    I do agree that there should be consequences for poor behaviour. They should be clear penalties applied to everyone, equally and they're neither clear nor consistently applied at present. That's going to keep biting us in the arse until we fix it too.

    Definitely agree that policy makers (all kinds) are too removed from the effects of what life they're making for other people. Same world, different planet for most of them. I'd like to see a year as a benefit claimant and a year as a copper added to their resumes, I'm sure it would be quite the education.

  62. @ anonymous 0321 - I have read the article. It was written by someone who retired in 1995 and there is a touch of 'Life on Mars' within it. I do agree with almost everything that has been said.
    If the body had been found carefully secreted under loft insulation I could understand it. If the body was in a black bag visible in the loft then there is no excuse for this failure.
    I am not sure I agree that political correctness had anything to do with this in this case. In other circumstances it might.

    @ Shanky - so you have nothing to contribute apart from blowing your trumpet.

    @ Metaldog - we are not talking about extremes here. Liberalism has taken over the public sector. This is not the far left, this is mainstream.

    I had a conversation with someone the other day who suggested that compassion only existed on the left. This is nonsense.

    Most on the right have compassion they just don't want people taking the mickey. The liberals (not left) have compassion coupled with extreme naivity which allows people to do so.

    Most sensible people want consequences followed by support. Liberals just want to 'help people.' This why they cause me so much angst!

  63. I do see some people on the further right who act as if they have no empathy at all, unfortunately. They think they have compassion, but they only seem to have it for people just like them - they seem to have trouble grasping that not everyone has their abilities, so they get pissed off when people with inherently more rubbish cards in their deck fail to be self-starting ambition machines. You know the thing. 'I grew up X but I didn't Y, therefore everyone who did is just bad, end of.'

    Given what we know about diet/environment affecting brain development, particularly in areas of the brain associated with impulse-control and empathy, I think we do need to account for it when dealing with people. Not a free pass, punishment for wrongdoing should be in place, but when society has helped to make the situation it also has a duty to help fix the situation and the dehumanising of people by calling them scum, vermin, etc - that worries me a lot. When you dehumanise people, it becomes easier to treat them very badly. The police suffer this as well when they're reduced to cartoon faceless thugs and labelled pigs, filth, etc, yes? It's never good.

    Looking at Cameron, in particular, who seems determined to make the least advantaged suffer the most in his 'austerity' drive whilst giving major corporations get out of tax free cards - that just isn't right.

    You know I'm a bit of a hippy though. We seem to be mostly in agreement despite that, coming at things from different ends. We can help people /and/ rap them on the knuckles.

  64. Being a young single mother, having had my first child at 18, and another child 5 years later, by a different father, and living in a rented home by the statements made above I assume that my children are living a dysfunctional life in a squat in your opinions.

    I work between 50 and 65 hours a week, I employ 2 childminders to cover my doing this, as one of my children is 2 this costs me in excess of £1200 a month, after a 12 hour shift I get home and prepare a healthy, home cooked meal for my children, I then teach my son, who is a straight A student, well above the national expectations who is doing schoolwork aimed at children 3 years above him. He aspires to go to Oxford University on leaving school to get a masters degree, for which I have started a savings account for him. I then read a few chapters of a book to both of the children, tuck them into bed, and go to sleep myself, alone.

    This life drains me, some months I have £19 of my wages left after paying bills. I am not rewarded for going to work at all, I get no housing or council tax benefit and I do this so that I can set a good example to my children, at the cost of not being able to see them often.

    On the same road as me is a family, the parents of which have never worked, they have 4 children, (the mother was 30 when she had her first) Courtesy of the benefits system the family have just spent 2 weeks at Disneyworld in Florida. This is what is wrong with the country.

    Not all young, single mothers have the 'benefit' mentality, I agree with a post above that people live the lives they do due to a lack of pride but if they are better off getting on their back popping kids out, than they are going to work, then why bother parenting, why bother cleaning, why not just sit on the sofa with a can of carling and watch jeremy kyle all day, when your biggest worry is if you can be assed to go and cash your dole giro.

    Although the killer is to blame, hopefully this may teach parents (because fathers can do it too) to be a lot more careful of who they leave their children alone with, which in my view, is definately not a crack dealing, mentally unstable man.

    1. This is one of the sensible comments on here, and there are many people like this person, including myself. Sometimes Im so busy with working and bringing up my daughter that I am unable to make sure the grass is cut on time etc, however, I do my very best in every respect to provide a good life for both of us.

    2. No, I don't think you are a dysfunctional scrounger. Etc. You misunderstand what I am about completely. People make mistakes and people lose their jobs. They need some help and support to get themselves out of the mess they are in. That is what the welfare state is for.
      One of my best friends is a lady who had a child at 17. The father was a criminal. He is still a waste of space some twenty years later. The mother grew up quickly, realised her mistake and moved on. She got a lot of help from the State but she quickly got a job and worked hard to support herself and her child. I don't have any issue with that.
      The problem is that we have created a society where many young girls lifestyle is, get pregnant, get a house, get pregnant again, never work, move different men in and out of their, and their childrens, lives, be repeated victims of domestic abuse. Etc. Etc.
      Societies answer to all this is to throw more and more resources at the increasing problem. Education is not reducing the problem, it is increasing. Apart from the fact that we cannot afford to support these feckless lifestyles, what are we actually achieving for these people. Rather than providing them with decent, fulfilled and worthwhile lives, we are consigning them to a miserable existance on benefits. When these people are on their death beds and look back on their lives, what have they done other then completely waste them? And our liberal 'progressive' state is responsible for this.

  65. Were we watching the same programme at 9pm on BBC2? The one Judge Julian Flaux of NW3 wanted banned? The one after BBC1 did a 30 minute spot on the Cardiff Three? The one where half of the "rioters" were indeed scum but the other 50% were anti-police due to past experiences of fitting up, racism, mendacity? I am not a detractor of Lex BTW I just piss myself laughing at him. Oderint dum metuant? Not any more;)

  66. The simple question Lex posed at the top of the page was "victim of the underclass?".Clearly she was,there's no argument there.The debate has now widened regarding why they become underclass and who's fault it is.

    When Hazell was interviewed before his arrest on TV his classic quote was "everyone has a past".In his world it's perfectly normal to go to prison for dealing drugs and attacking people with a machete.All his mates have done it so he thinks it's OK.That's the attitude the Liberals can't change.

  67. The sad but controvertial thing to say is that in a few years Tia would have reproduced and had the same life as her Mum/Granny. Jamie Bulger? Now in order to have an "underclass" one needs an overclass, would that be knuckle dragging plod? The Morlocks to Addington's Elois?

  68. Ron,

    Some of the rioters showed remorse. Some showed shame. There were some glimmers of hope.

    But most were terribly selfish and simply annoyed they got caught.

    One thought it terribly unfair that after doing her stealing, she got robbed herself.

    One guy thought it ok to rob the shops and then other weaker robbers.

    One guy said with pride 'i done a lot worse before-its no big deal innit?'

    One guy needed to skin up mid interview (it was direct transcripts despite being acted)- after showing indignation about being stopped and searched in the past- he emptied a bag during the interview full of drugs.

    One women said they should not have robbed- that was wrong but that they should have killed police instead!!

    (somehow in her mind robbery is worse than murder)

    (she also failed to understand why armed gang members get shot if they don't put down their weapon when faced with armed police- police that are putting their lives on the line protecting her community)

    one guy said he vandalised shops that had previously requested ID from him to prove his age- 'so its revenge innit?'

    some said it was cos of ill feeling towards the police-'they wuz takin the piss"- of course criminals often resent being thwarted from engaging in their activities- just as a naughty child resents their teacher who issues a detention for misbehaviour.

    I can't recall all the horrible quotes- but the extent of the criminality, disregard of human life and others' property and livelihood, even their very neighbours, was utterly sickening.


  69. Jess, I wouldn't waste your breath arguing with Ronnie.
    He doesn't even realise that the temporary blocking of the Riots programme by Judge Flaux was done at the request of the defence.
    The cops would have loved it to have been shown - but I think it might have influenced the eventual verdict ;-)


  70. Jess - angry black guy said it all for me "I have fuck all left to lose". Community? Which community are Babylon protecting? I lived in and near Brixton 81 & 85, nobody in a blue uniform put their life on the line, racist scum to a "man". Talking of which, Tango, you call those sentences? Vindictiveness born of fear.

  71. Ron,
    I would suggest the 'angry black guy' has plenty to lose.

    Was he under 40? Able bodied?

    So he can lose his health?
    He can lose his freedom?

    These things are precious.
    There are plenty of human, living in other countries that would give their right arm for a quality of life he currently has.

    Freedoms protected in uk and European Law
    Law & Order- to some extent anyway!

    What does the angry black guy want for?
    A flat screen telly?

    Cant get a job? The recession will be over in a couple of years- in the meantime use the time to enjoy hobbies, do sports, read novels, charity work, go back to college, do an evening course, etc etc

    Other young black people from less than perfect backgrounds are outstanding citizens- its not an unfair expectation or standard.


    ps and guess what- 'Trident' is there to primarily protect the black community! They are most often the victim of drugs and gang related crime.

  72. Over 40 like me and on the scrapheap (ditto). But your basic point is crap. When a rich man dies he loses the sweetness of life, when a poor man dies he loses its pain.

  73. Ronnie,
    I cling to the forlorn hope that one day you will actually attempt to sustain an argument for more than one post.
    Until then you remain an un-controvertial (sic) troll who pretends to an intellectual stature that he cannot back up with even the semblance of a reasoned position.


  74. Ron,
    Well you get to join me in the 40+ category then...

    I assumed he was under 40 due to the immaturity of the original quote.

    ok- so you can take out youth from my list- do the other things not count all of a sudden?

    why is the point 'crap'

    I would rather be a 45yo in good health than a 70yo millionaire or a rich 25yo with a chronic medical condition.

    I always think your quality of life depends upon your personal relationships, health and absorbing hobby or job. Who cares how posh the wallpaper is?

    Its just a backdrop to your life.

    Its nicer driving to work in an audi rather than a 15yo vauxhall (I imagine) but you know what- they both get your there- who cares that the audi has a prettier dash board? (I imagine).

    And if you cant afford a car, you get to use a bus and a spot of healthy walking.

    And since when did hurting someone, or vandalising something bring more sweetness to your life?

    The point still stands- others from foreign lands would happily swap places with 'your angry black man'.


  75. OK Jess if that makes you feel better then great. Seriously. As to Tango, Julian Assange escapes police state Britain, the smallest and poorest province of the American Imperium. In your face New Scotland Yard. F*** you!

  76. Assange flees the oppressive reach of the totalitarian dictatorship that is Sweden by escaping to the bastion of free speech and liberty that is.... Ecuador.
    Hilarious. You could almost think there is some truth in the allegations against him, so desperate is he to avoid even defending himself against them.


  77. The rapists friend strikes again...
    Free the Sheffield One!!!

  78. Ron,
    Why would it make me feel better?
    Its made me feel sad and a tad despondent.... hasnt it you?

    I want to believe that everyone has salvation, can turn their back on evil and wrongdoing- that the milk of human kindness is hidden within even the hardiest of creeds...

    but the rioters were so entrenched, so unreasonable, so selfish, so ammoral, so devoid of shame or sense of responsibility.

    I got the sense they would stab you in the heart for a packet of cigarettes and then forget about it 15 mins later.

    That footage of rioters pulling bystanders off motor bikes and pretending to help victims whilst stealing from their back pack- ugh!

    And the ones who did seem to have any sense of conscience and ethics, were so perverse yet hardened in their logic - they are lost to reason and compassion...

    And for the ones that did get caught, when they have completed their sentences, there is no doubt in my mind that the majority wont have the slightest problem with reoffending against a new set of innocent victims.


  79. Shanky I offer you a hankie, you must be widow twanky!! Now wipe your mouth of the dribble you speak, you may have a vocabulary to upset the local constabulary, but when it comes to local communities you fail to acknowledge the reasons why they are in such disarray!! You can quote as many miscarriages of justice as you can, but it doesn't mean people who commit crimes are immune to the rule of law. Kids these days fear living their lives write something inspiring not conspiring this diatribe is tiring. Hindsight is second rate to Insight!! Stop making excuses for criminals to jump on the bandwagon

  80. A young girls life was brutally stolen from her, this deviant who claimed to love her. It's very sad that we can apportion blame instead of finding solutions to the deprivation that is ever more apparent in our society, my childhood was colourful to say the least, I began to see life as "normal" when my parents argued, fought took drugs then abused their children (myself & my siblings), things were "abnormal" when we prospered as a family, treading on eggshells waiting for the next erruption verbal, sexual, physical, mental and emotional abuse. When you see such behaviours day in day out you normalise that behaviour. We are all a product of our upbringing be it good or bad. Because "one" has been abused, doesn't give that person carte blanche to become abuser. There is a very fine line between abused and abuser, if crossed your whole life becomes one massive car crash, we can choose not to be consumed by the aftermath of such traumatic childhoods and acknowledge that our conscious being is a "normal reaction to an abnormal situation" In the caser of Tia sharp this resonates with me, who knows what the child aspired to be or what she would have become, sadly we will never know because one of the deviants crossed that line. We need totooteach youngsters the joy of living life instead of fearing it, all too often we point out what went wrong instead of focusing onchanging societies perception and practising what we preach, it's not wise to tar everyone with the same brush society as a whole need re educated on the issues we all have a duty to protect these children only then can we live withwith our neighbours in harmony and not fear. Where their is "will" there is a way.

  81. Jess stop being obtuse I said 50% were **** and 50% actually had reason to rise up. Now to Assange, he offered to be interrogated in the Ecuadorian Embassy. No doubt Anna Ardin (CIA) and Sofia Wilen (bunny boiler) will make a few quid out of it!!

  82. Anonymous 1013 - I certainly understand that, in general, people are a product of their upbringing.
    I don't think it is wrong to criticise the lifestyles of those who live irresponsibly at the expense of others. Peer pressure is one way of altering poor behaviour.
    What some of us are saying is that the liberal policies that have been put in place to try and help are doing just the opposite and actually causing the problem to get worse.
    I don't want to see people wasting their lives in this way. Sometimes tough love is the best way to help people. This just does not seem to compute for some.

  83. Ron
    I wasn't being obtuse- and my point still stands.

    and your figures are possibly wrong- 75% had prior convictions- convictions that probably recognised only a fraction of their real victim list.

    so at best, its not 50% its 25%- I'm bound to ask, what were they rising up about?

    And why does stealing a telly, a packet of cigarettes or setting fire to a phone shop or dental surgery further their 'cause'?


  84. How many of the 75% convicted were for political offences Jess?

  85. oh no...not the 'get out of jail free' card- the dreaded political offence stance.

    In all honesty I have no idea of the criminal CV's of the 75% and what proportion of their crimes could be construed as political.

    Of course, if one subscribes to 'all property is theft' mindset then almost all crime could be redefined.

    Which is all well and good until some sod nicks your car or rapes your daughter.


  86. Jess - Maya Evans (1 week in jail for reading a list of war dead) Walter Wolfgang (heavy squad take on 80 year old for saying "Rubbish" to Home Sec) I could go on. But I won't. Broxted 1, Jess Nil (F/T).

  87. Ron,

    So was this 80yo involved in the riots?

    And was Maya convicted for reading a list by herself at home? or did she perhaps break some other law?


    Do you by any chance know how many of the rioters had 'political' convictions as apposed to simple drug/robbery/assault offences?


  88. Jess you are wasting your time.Everybody in prison is a political prisoner according to the moron Broxted.If you want a good laugh then read his blog.It is essential reading for anyone studying the mentally ill.

  89. Jess,
    Honestly there is no point trying to argue with Ron.
    He can't even be bothered to research his own arguments.

    Maya Evans' imprisonment was unrelated to her demo in 2006 reading out the names of the war dead. It was for non-payment of a fine following an arrest for obstructing the highway.

    Wolfgang was ejected from the labour conference and had his pass removed for "heckling" all of these actions carried out by private security guards.
    He was stop searched (- not arrested) by police officers when he attempted to return to the venue and enter without a pass later in the day.


  90. Ron,
    i see in the latest confused dribble that you call a blog you are praising a Judge for banning magistrates from blogging.

    Perhaps you could explain exactly what your position on free speech is?


  91. Tango,

    I did suspect there would be a little bit more detail concerning the so called 'political crimes'.

    I appreciate your enlightening me. (and hopefully Ron)

    Jess x

  92. Jess Smells Like Teen Spirit.
    Tango Smells Like Special Branch
    Jade Just Smells.

  93. Oh dear,i'm embarrassed for you.Surely a man who will lead us to revolution is not this childish?
    Freedom for rapists! All women are liars! Free Tibet (and Ched Evans).

  94. Ronnie,
    A spirited and well-reasoned defence of your position. Your intellectual pedigree is, as usual, shining through.

    Apologies to lex for the off-topic diversion to laugh at at the world's dumbest troll.


  95. First the ignore you, then they mock you, then they fight you, then you win (Gandhi).

  96. Ron,
    I dont know if you mean to say I sound young or am naive?

    Im a 40+ mom with plenty of life's hard knocks on her CV.

    Im surprised you are not able to follow your own lines of thought- Ive been happy to let you direct the emphasis of the debate.

    eg. Is Tango wrong about what he told me regarding Maya and Wolfgang?


  97. Well Ronnie, as long as you keep comparing yourself to Gandhi I am fairly confident we will stay in the "mocking you" phase.
    Unless you have evidence that Gandhi preached violence, was incapable of rational argument and resorted to quoting others in an attempt to appear intelligent?


  98. Unless he has anything sensible to say, please just ignore him.

  99. Shanky here.

    (“Ya gatta’ HEREMENOW! ULTIMATE RASTA...RUTHLESS PATWA...JAMAICA UNFAZED…one love…peace ta’all me rudeboys...”)

    To the badly programmed automaton who conflates his or her puerile conceptions of rhyme with my peerlessly constructed demonstrations of excellence and prowess, I suggest that you recall the qualitative relationship between words and ideas and in doing so remain mindful that the quality and clarity of one’s thoughts is most cogently expressed through the quality and clarity of one’s words. With that in mind, know that your questions, ideas and criticisms are, when stated, experientially no different to being offered a nappy full of shit by an excruciatingly retarded child with a powerfully gormless grin on its face.

    And’s a bit rich to criticise me for showing-off, unless ego played no role in your initial decision to join The Sneak, or, in fact, in your decision to become a blog-writing evangelist for the always dubious right-wing former-force crowd.

    I am Shanky: vertical leap – 72 inches...

  100. shanky, may I ask how old you are?

  101. Jess, Maya was jailed for non payment of a fine. If you think reading a list of dead soldiers is a crime I feel sorry for you and pity you. Wolfgang was escorted by two 6ft 8 inch "brave" PCs. That image went around the world. may I assure you the UK is a sick joke at best, and a de facto police state at worst. Yes, I was in Belarus & Iran I know wherefor of I speak.

  102. Well Ron, we all get escalated sanctions if we don't pay a fine don't we?

    None of us are above the law.

    If I don't pay a parking fine, then ultimately I can end up with a custodial sentence.

    I think thats totally fair and appropriate surely?

    From what Tango said Wolfgang was interrupting a party speech and was escorted away by security guards- which is exactly what would happen to me if I made a nuisance of myself at a political conference.

    Why should one person spoil everything for 1000's of others.

    I mean 1 or 2 shouts is one thing but if I persistently shout out what else are they expected to do?

    Whats your point exactly?

    I know you are 'assuring me' that we all a sick joke etc but I have always enjoyed living in a free country with civilised laws and cultural tolerance (within limits).

    I can poke fun at whoever is in power in private and in public safe in the knowledge that I wont get beaten or killed. I can vote in small or large elections and I can even stand for election myself.

    I can insult and mock political and religious leaders (within reason) and do so knowing no harm will come to me.

    This sounds a far cry from Iran doesn't it?


  103. Jess my last word so here goes. The Maya Evans fine was a political imposition. You know, I know that.
    Parking? More of a criminal offence surely? Even I know that a double yellow line is there for a reason, I have no worries obeying good laws but will never acquiese to bad ones.
    Heckling? He said rubbish once which kinda puts your "argument" to rest. After the arrests at the Ecuadorian embassy today only a fool and a dangerous one at that would say Britain is "free". Why, BTW do we have a government in exile if the UK is free?

  104. Ron,
    Neither of us can pick and choose which rules we deign to obey. Someone recently decided to ignore the rule of 'not murdering 12yo girls'.

    My understanding is that no-one was jailed for reading out a list of deceased servicemen, instead they were jailed, breifly, for non payment of a fine.

    You appeared to have conveniently ignored context and detail.

    I just read about the Walter ejection thing (turns out he is an extreme socialist - ironically a type not historically renowned for being too keen on free speech- brother).

    He was indeed deliberately heckling the speaker and was removed. But then soon afterwards the Labour Party apologised to him! Hardly the actions of the Ayatollah or a Stalinist state.

    And I don't think its foolish to say uk is a free country- I can pretty much do as I wish- I have far more latitude and freedoms than most other countries, chief amongst them is that I have new democratically elected local representative for my borough.


  105. Jess for once and once only I will steal a line from the towering intellect that is Ferenda "With respect, bollox". Now scuse me as I need to book a flight, Eid is almost upon us and the Winter Offensive is ratcheting up a notch.

  106. Learned Council16 August, 2012 20:51

    Jess, as Lex said you really need to ignore this cretin.
    I only use this pseudonym when writing about Ron. I use it because he constantly has to tell everyone how intelligent he is. A sure sign of an imbecile. In one of his previous comments he referred to a QC as 'Learned Council.' You could not make it up!

    Ron is constantly banging on about how he is going to be popping a plod before long. He says that come the next riots he will be there at the forefront of operations. He does not explain why he missed his opportunity at the riots last year.

    He keeps going on about the middle east and he will be off to Pakistan, Afghanistan or Iran Etc. Then he told us that he couldn't get a visa. Top terrorists are often thwarted at this hurdle.

    He claims to be hiding out in the Republic of Ireland. The truth is the police have no interest in his whereabouts. Special Branch showed some interest in him once. It would be remiss not to when you have someone spouting terrorist views. Having looked at him, SB realised he was an impotent idiot and have no interest in him.

    Ron won't be going to any riots or the middle east or anywhere else. He is destined to spend the rest of his miserable life in front of his PC, masturbating and spouting poison.

    Don't waste any more time on him.

  107. Dear Lex, Tango, Anon & Council,

    Sigh, I suppose you are all correct- I was willing to put the ball in Ron and Shanky's court so they could develop their points and thought processes.

    I do think its important to engage people with such hostile views- rather a war of words than a war of bullets I always say.

    I could ask Ron what precisely in my reply to him was 'bollox' but he doesn't wish to debate critical detail - I guess when one's politics almost becomes a religion - you dont want to face any inherent contradictions in case the house of cards comes a tumbling...

    Anyhow, I gave it my best shot- maybe in time, experience and time can lead to a softening of their views- it can happen sometimes and my fingers are crossed- its in my nature I guess...

    Jess x

  108. Shanky arrives to da sound of da police: “WOOP-WOOP!”

    Anyway…Jess, you’d like to know my age? I’ll tell you what; I’ll split the difference with you: I’ll disclose my age if you disclose your weight. Maybe I’m around thirty years old, but am I more, or less, and who can say? Maybe I’m several drunken teenagers (some funnier than others), or perhaps I’m really just a highly sophisticated swarm of robots that are hooked on the opinions of Lex Ferenda? We’ll find out next time…

    Oh, and, when measuring your mass, if you step onto the scales and they happen to make a long bending sound, or they scream, then you probably ought to know that I’m not going to be particularly interested in the outcome of the weighing or especially forthcoming with my age as a result.

    Just to detract briefly from the central strand of this accomplishment, I have a bit of a technical question for Lex. Good evening, Lex: erm, a local chap gave me a bit of fright the other day. As I rounded a corner in my local shopping centre, I happened upon a rather shabby, scrawny fellow with an ill-favoured look about him. He was unclean, unshaven and the moustache he wore was worn offensively. The trouble was that he appeared to be wearing a policeman’s uniform. I got the fright of my life and did well not to immediately high-hand the fellow in an imperiously expeditious manner as he looked like a smack-head head in a stolen uniform. How best should one go about making a complaint about the appearance of the police, or is it not important as complaint is oft the most common course of action when the police make an appearance?

    ”This has got to cease
    Cause we be getting HYPED to the sound of da police!”

  109. Shanky,
    What a surprise, another ad hominem attack.
    You don't really understand the concept of debate do you?
    Still if you consider that you have something to say and you believe your writing style is entertaining, why don't you start your own blog?
    You really aren't contributing anything here just tedious affected preening whilst lacking either the ability or courage to actually address the arguments you have been presented with.


    (apologies lex, I won't be contributing further to this thread unless Shanky actually attempts to engage in debate)

  110. Seriously Shanky you ought to start a blogge. Plod hate dissenting voices. Jess is branch and Tango a failure, left school at 14 and straight into the filth. These Ras Clarts are so dumb they cannot see that if they arrest Assange it goes GLOBAL. Now the lets see the Beeb attack Putin over Pussy Riot, oh wait our goons just smashed up an embassy for Uncle Sam. All Cats Are Beautiful.

  111. Ron,
    I take it you mean to say I'm in Special Branch?
    What a silly notion- my career is education based thanks- dont have much of a stomach for crime fighting - or 'oppression' as you no doubt would call it.

    Assange- given the seriousness of his alleged offence I cannot see why he should be able to choose Equador.
    I understand the conspiracy theory which is not entirely implausible I suppose but surely Sweden is better then Equador?- I think the UK is right to refuse the transfer. I bet his alleged victim is too.

    Putin- Im quite sure he is guilty of the polonium execution and vote scamming and the bombing of his political opponents.

    However it does seem to me that making a music 'row' in a place or worship is offensive and unacceptable and should be met with an arrest and fine.
    But I dont think its worth 3 YEARS in jail which Putin has been rumoured to be considering.

    If thats true then I would think thats excessive and unjust but would be pretty typical of their regime.

    For that particular public order offence what do you think the Russian authorities should have done?

    Yours, Commander Je.... opps I mean Jess

  112. Jess they got two years and (we were just discussing this at lunch) IMHO ought to have received a fine and told "Next time, Siberia". Can you tell Tango it is getting weird? He visits my site more than my de Clerambault stalker (ex Met, natch) and my ho's and bitches are starting to wonder. Tango I don't do the Man Love thing you batty bway but know of a Leather Queen in Norfolk who may oblige you.

  113. Ron,
    Goodness- is this a moment of agreement? on the fine? marvellous

    As to Tango- Im sure he's more than capable of reading your words


  114. “No pop, no style - I'm strictly roots
    No pop, no style - I’m strictly roots…”

    We have confirmation: Shanky is in the building. Ladies, you’re welcome…

    To my dear friend Tang0: good grief, what’s with all this posturing, noise and bluster? To accuse me of failing to understand any concept which you yourself purport to understand will surely seem axiomatically ridiculous to the interlocutor of the casual observer. As I have no desire to marginalise you from any ensuing debate I will concede to your request and pick up on what Jess (poor, heavy Jess…) and Ron were saying about Julian Assange.

    The Assange story must be viewed from a geo-political standpoint in Shanky’s opinion. There are several strands to this ongoing story and we can only understand them and their convergence within the broader context of US geopolitical manoeuvring. There are many issues surrounding the sovereignty of the individual vassal states who find themselves caught in the Orwellian vortex of global corporate and military expansionism by the US, leading to extradition treaties that in no way serve the bipartite interest and further corrode notions of sovereign democratic self-determination.

    We can now consider the central premise: that Assange, in facilitating the publishing of US diplomatic cables, was in fact the publisher. As the wonderfully perspicacious contributors to this eminent policeman’s blog will no doubt obviously recall, Julian Assange initially published what became known as the Wikileaks cables with mainstream press partners in America, Britain and Germany, yet only Assange has been indicted for the dissemination of secret information. This policy seems very much in tune with Obama’s will to persecute whistleblowers who disclose instances of crime by corporations and departments of state. This provides a darkly humorous but telling counterpoint to the US Department of Homeland Security’s “If you see something, say something” campaign, but I digress…

    Next we must consider the internet. The undeniable push to censor the internet is long underway. The amusing thing about the current waves of argument in favour of censorship is that they all use the narrative and conceptual framework of “cyber-terrorism” to justify the blacklisting of websites and the ending of net neutrality despite it being the “cyber-terrorism” of state-actors (Israel and the United States launched the “stuxnet” and “flame” viruses) whose actions escalate the ongoing “cyber wars” and provides these despotic haters of free expression with the requisite ammunition to compose arguments that incrementally confuse and terrify the callow and the weak-minded into acquiescence and acclimation. Assange put out the raw data and asked us all to reengage with the great questions of our time, but to do so armed with far more knowledge of world events than ever before, increasing the probability of rational conclusions being drawn by individuals individually, unfettered by a banal and corrupt global media. In elevating the level of discourse using information that entirely disgorges the US diplomatic narrative of all credibility, Assange makes himself a political target.

    Finally we must appreciate that the US is a bankrupt warmongering right-wing dictatorship with a rather nasty habit of torturing people. It’s just not cricket to look the other way and allow a chap to be sent off to a country with their kind of human rights record. And their prisons are a disgrace. I spent a little time up at Clinton in New York State and let me tell you, its shank or be shanked out there. That’s actually how I came to be known as Shanky. I served part of my time with The Ol’ Dirty Bastard from the Wu Tang Clan; he gave me the nickname as it happens. Quite a character that one, but here’s me talking about old times…

    Anywise, if this brief summation of about ten percent of my opinions on the matter can in any way contribute towards the formation of a debate then no one will be more amazed than me.

    I am Shanky: an excellent man indeed.

  115. @ Shanky

    Well said, Sir....meriting early praise in advance of expectant contempt from PC Tang0 (aka Tnago) and WPC Jaded.

    The latter duo often boost and inspire me to the propinquitas of spiritual experience. There again, this small planet may have generated a precise number of lunkheads purely by chance.

  116. Consider me full of contempt MTG and Shanky.
    It's amazing how you idiots find each other.With Ron (or whoever he is today) the three of you can form a daisy chain.

  117. Sir Lord Shanky, I'd be annoyed if I were one of the 3 arrested. Looks as if it is turning into "The Julian Assange Show". Now to Melvin, the only other sign of intelligent life on this blogge. For the first time ever a preview of "After Watt". It will next feature the Blakelock saga and verbatim interviews of 2 who were at Broadwater, 1 of ours and 1 plod.

  118. Gosh Shanky- a post with some content- nice work

    pity to spoilt it with verbose silliness. I can't imagine why you feel the need to ridicule your self like that.

    and 'poor heavy Jess'? is that a jibe? heavy body or over serious personality? I flatter myself that neither apply to me, but its shame to make personal remarks whether accurate or not.

    Anyhow, I think most people understand the premise of the conspiracy theory and Assanges claims.

    However I dont think alleged sexual offenders have the right to pick and choose which countries can try them.

    And Sweden do have the right to try him. I suspect Equador have a bone to pick with the US, UK or even Sweden- they are not normally the 1st port of call for your political refugee.

    As to the general point about secrets, whilst i like free press and am pretty confident that there is high level corruption in every country on Earth to some degree, I so also understand why countries have to keep official secrets.

    If someone violates that they run the risk of serious consequences. Most countries, including the UK would do the same as the USA.

    As to internet monitoring, Im all for it. I have to nothing to hide so people can spy on me to their hearts content. I understand why criminals and sex offenders have a different view.


  119. Kicking off in Brixton as PC LX 273 decides to administer some "justice" to I bredrin.

  120. Ron (or whoever) you do realise you're not black don't you?

  121. Well, some claptrap from the overeducated Shanky has brought out both MTG and Ron. Book your ticket to London Ron; it's all kicking off............ Not.

    I thought we had all got bored with the warmongering, globalising, geopolitical US of A. If George W was still at the helm rather than the weak and watery Obama.........

    It is not surprising that the usual suspects will assume that the rape allegations against Assange are a US conspiracy. I think most people applaud the WikiLeaks exposure but most sensible people will separate WikiLeaks and the rape allegations. If you do this then you have to accept that Assange must face justice in Sweden. Two victims of very serious crimes are being denied justice at present.

    I fail to understand how some contributors believe that a rape suspect should escape justice on the basis of perceptions and their own bigotry regards the US.

  122. 1. Lex, I have indeed booked a ticket to England.
    2. Rubbish about Assange - how do you deal with rape allegations? Now I know it is not always some poor woman turning up in ripped clothes screaming that a guy just jumped out of the dark but surely, SURELY even in that dim brain of yours you realise that 10% or 20% of the time it is some scum who wants to get her own back on an ex, or is looking for attention.

  123. Ron
    I think many people would accept that some rape allegations are fraudulent.

    But they need to be investigated don't they?

    2 Swedish alleged victims are entitled to justice are they not?


  124. 1. Jess that is what I am asking. Plod know about 5 minutes in if it is a real rape. Fitting up comes into it at this stage.
    2. No. Ardin has CIA links, Wilen is a nutter. If I claim that Vicky Binns raped me how plausible is it?

  125. Ron
    There is often a feasible 'fit up/revenge claim' in rape cases.

    Especially if the assailant is known to the victim.

    And even if not defences will use all manner of excuses to get their client off.

    This doesn't mean that all defence claims are true any more than prosecution claims are.

    Thats what courts are for.

    Which is why Assange should be in Sweden cooperating with the authorities.

    And I'm getting the impression from you that you regard lots of people as nutters or agents of the CIA or 'Branch' :)


  126. Jess my sole mention of CIA was connected to Ardin, that is a fact, check her out. Branch? Operate on many left wing blogs. Fact. Nutters? Well WPC Jade D, Insp "Kevin Edney" Gadget, but he is more of a **** than a nutter. Shijuro? Drools. Sign of a nutter. 200 Weeks? Mentally retarded but not a nutter.

  127. Ron,
    Well I read the original police complaints. Although some details were blacked out I would say the evidence for rape is pretty thin imo.
    Both alleged victims were on civil terms with him post intercourse- thats hardly usual for rape...
    Whilst he appears to be a vain turd- thats not illegal.

    Of course perhaps more incriminating info was the very stuff blacked out.
    It looks to me like 2 bitter women on what little I have seen.
    But we dont have all the evidence- thats what the Swedish court gets.

    ps Yes, I accept Ardin has some potential CIA links- its not a great leap to suggest she was 'paid to false claim'- but I'd bet against it.

    Either way- if he's done nothing wrong, then the court can show this. He still cannot pick and choose who to be questioned and judged by.


  128. TUUURN IT UP!

    Friends, enemies, creatures of sublime ambivalence, I offer you Shanky: the strongest of them all…

    Hello everyone. To those who made flattering remarks, I thank you. To Lex Ferenda..?


    I’m overeducated? I knew I should have skipped that class in Double-Ignorance. How much education does it take before one becomes overeducated, exactly? Slap the books from your children’s hands and warn them of the slippery slope ahead, did you? Classic. Anyone recall the excellent Bill Hicks “So, looks like we got ourselves a reader…” shtick? Ah, forget it…and what’s with dropping that “Not” on Ron? Did you think that that was funny? I mean, what is this: 1993? Don’t recall it being funny back then, either. Anyway, what’s on your gramophone, Lex? Pennsylvania 6-5000? Tsss…

    Jade, is it? Heremenow, ma patwa be a rut’less ‘ting, cha undastand me, gurl? Me be a Kingston boy, cha silly ‘ting: ha curl me lip atcha…

    Ah, goodness me, hello Jess. If I knew you were coming to the party I’d have arrived a lot earlier. Yes, apologies for the jibe. Look, I’m a thoroughly decent, well meaning fellow who just so happens to be imbued with the kind of verbosity that can vaporise pretty much whatever I turn it to when I switch it on-up to the maximum maximum. What can I say other that to admit that the English language is a bewitching language to command? But fear not, I promise to handle you gently.

    Firstly, I accept all of your criticisms; however, at times when writing I feel as though I’m giving a lecture to an auditorium filled with disinterested half-wits, certain esteemed members aside, so it becomes important for me to entertain myself in the process. I apologise if this detracts from the intricacies central to the points explored within the deployment of my horror-level razzmatazz, but what can I do? I’m just a man. Probably the greatest of all men…

    Big shout-out ta me main-man KRS-One and ta me peeps Will Self and Ian Hislop. Rut’less styles, effortless patwa man…

    I am Shanky: suave, emollient, dignified…

  129. Jaded - with his ego he will take that as a compliment.

  130. Jess, last part first. Yes he can get to choose after all UK plod "refuse to answer questions" when they are too hard. Now, you really wanna know?
    Here goes. Ardin (may) have been a honey trap, lets leave that now, Wilen ONLY came forward after she was told she was NOT the only gal in his life. Vain turd? Yes. Rapist, No.

  131. Ron,
    Well on the last part we perhaps agree (though we dont know the full evidence)

    But you and I don't get to choose who tries us if we are accused of something.

    We can't just say 'um i have this conspiracy theory and the other accuser is just bitter so no thanks I shan't be attending your compulsory interviews'

    It doesn't work like that. He has to face the procedures like any other accused.

    ps if it really was a honey trap surely Ardin would have claimed violence etc- although again there may other evidence to follow.....


  132. Don't get the choice of who tries us? The police do. Now to Ardin, we will never know the whole story, she admitted CIA links. Odd n'est pas? If only they gave her file to Cpl Bradly Manning;)

  133. police dont have a choice of who questions them when acting as a civilian, (off duty).

    if however something occurs whilst on duty they have to abide by what ever procedures are in place.

    the same is true for a soldier.

    as to Assange its for a court to determine what happened.


  134. Shanky arrives to a shower of roses thrown by all including even his most ardent critics now made moist with awe at the manifestation of greatness there before them.

    Heremenow! Big love ta ma boy Ferenda on ‘is no-show. What? Ma argument be too let’al and ma patwa be too rasta for ya boy? Ha chase ya. Ha pafarm me rascalisation on behaf a whole da nation. Heremenow! A be INFINATE GANGASTA! Shanky always bring di boom-bap. PEACE!

    Look Jade(d), I enjoy a spirited debate as much as the next chap, but you appear to have images of daisy-chains and the jut of turgid, acutely angled gut-sticks prevailing upon your mind of late. Now, far be it from me to attempt to moderate, but I’m sure that you have much more to offer this dazzling marketplace of ideas than merely the grotesque reflections of a poisoned soul. Allow me to cast an avuncular arm across your shoulders and lead you back onto the path of righteousness. Only through rigorous debate can enlightenment increase. If we fail to test the soundness of our ideas in debate and choose only indulge those who share in our own narrow view, we cease to grow as human beings and become less inclined to exercising the intellect we all possess.

    Hello Jess. From the perspective of Assange’s accusers being potentially denied justice, what about Assange himself? People may not like him and consider him smug and arrogant or even a criminal, but these are not reasons to deny the man justice. He has attempted many times to speak with Swedish prosecutors in England and they refused him. Are the prosecutors in doing this not also in some way to blame for his accusers being denied justice, or do they do it under order to maintain the imposition of these reputation-wrecking charges without allowing the facts to ever be fully established? In forcing Assange to seek asylum from their extra-judicial proclivities, are the United States not also denying these women justice? It seems some media commentators have already successfully convicted him in the court of public opinion, and as this story is so big and so drawn-out, could Julian Assange really even get a fair trial in Sweden or the United States on any charges now? It seems unlikely to me. As to your attitude regarding internet snooping by the government, you seem like a sleepwalker with no knowledge of the Stasi. Surely it is precisely because you have nothing to hide that you ought to resent being treated like a potential criminal. My main gripe is that I don’t trust the institutions with my private information and I am well aware of the current abuses within the system as it stands. Any rational person ought to view any instrument that can be quickly turned into a totalitarian weapon with the utmost caution as no rational person harbours the desire to allow their children to be raised in a prison that was built up around them. But then the children would be used to it, right? Incrementalism. Slice by slice freedoms are taken as the “new” normality is imposed. Nothing to hide is not the point, nor is it the winning argument: the point is that we all have something to lose and the winning argument is the number of British soldiers who died in the Second World War to ensure our island remained free of the ideology behind the attempts to normalise this kind of totalitarianist crap.

    I am Shanky: a Rasta of repute.

  135. Jess the police ARE civilians. The only police who are NOT civilians are Royal Military Police, Shore Patrol & RAF Police. Will you stop using quasi military terms and taking the laurels which rightly belong to brave men? Contemptible. Shanky you are in charge, ok.

  136. Or this written by a former Met detective who as a drink driver killed a pedestrian. Not charged this far. Two laws Jess?
    I had a strange relationship with my father. He was born of Irish traveller stock, rumours within the family suggest that he was the result of an incestuous relationship between his Mother and her Father! The DNA trail certainly indicates this to be case, but before I along with the reader become too self-righteous it is worth remembering that such relationships were not unusual in rural Ireland where often the eldest daughter would often take over her mothers role when her mother died usually in childbirth or under the hooves of a runaway horse where the travellers caravans were sited.

    The first thing I remember about my father was that he was an idle thieving bastard who would think nothing of abusing my dear mother when he was drunk, which was most days and nights. At this time my parents had settled in Camberwell South London following them being forced to leave Ireland or have their caravan burnt to the ground, probably with them in it. Something to do with my father helping himself to someone else's property and being beaten up my an elderly gipsy woman who blinded him in his left eye . Whenever the reason for our banishment from Eire was mentioned my dear old mother would quickly place her finger on her lips and lower her eyes.

    So in 1961 I came to be born following my father forcing himself on my dear mother. I recall with distaste the horrible council flat in which I grew up in New Cross Sarf London. My father never had a proper job and showed no interest in obtaining employment preferring to claim state benefits. Indeed his expertise in milking the system for every penny he could was something of and achievement for a inbreed who had never had a days schooling.Indeed it was my dear old mother who kept food in our bellies and paid the rent. It was only years later that I realise just how she had raised the money all those years ago, when I asked mother why I had so many Afro Caribbean uncles when we lived in London that I now never heard from?
    My mother just shrugged her shoulders and looked uncomfortable. Somehow from her troubled look I guessed who those seemingly carefree black uncles had been.

    I remember my father once bragging to me that he was a good friend of Ronny and Reggie Kray the notorious Gay East London gangsters, however another uncle from Hampshire Willy the Perv Redrup told me some years later that my father had been a part-time male prostitute who would do anything for drugs and drink and that the twins had used him enthusiastically just as they had used so many other people in the East End.

    Had this been in order to put food on the family table I could have accepted his disgusting behaviour, but in order to fill his spliffs and white wash his nasal cavities was unforgivable.

    To be continued.........

    Posted 4 hours ago by Arthur Watt

  137. Shanky,

    I'm not sure doing 2nd rate Ali G impressions is quite the same as 'robust debate' but I welcome the inclusion of substance.

    As to Assange, he has to answer to the police in the country where he committed his alleged crimes- just like you and I would have to.

    As to the USA, I have some sympathy with their position- Assange choose to release national secrets, that some have said comprised the safety of state operatives- people get shot for less- so yes, they probably want their pound of flesh, as any government would. (whatever warmth we may personally have for whistle blowing)

    No doubt his selfless nobility will cause him to accept whatever consequences come his way.

    As to unfair trials, yes I take your point about infamy but I'm guessing you wouldn't argue that Hitler should have 'got off' cos he couldn't be guaranteed an impartial jury? (had he not done the suicide thing)

    Anyhow, I have more faith in our swedish peers or judges- if the evidence isnt there he wont get convicted of rape imo.

    As to being monitored you are right- I could not give a toss- they can watch me 24-7 if they like- it will make for rather glum viewing.

    But if it prevents terrorism or gun running or drug related crime then great. super great.

    Its like the queues at the airport- a necessary evil Im afraid.


  138. Ron,
    Not quite- police have alls sorts of powers that an off duty or retired policeman doesnt have- let alone a normal civilian.

    Very similar to that of a service man.

    I for example cannot carry a gun.
    Whereas an armed officer or soldier can.

    They can discharge their weapon according to rules of engagement or standard procedures/training.

    If i were to obtain a gun somehow- I most certainly cannot do such rings.

    So if i shoot someone or put cuffs on them for example I would be in court.

    But an officer or soldier who discharges his/her gun doesnt normally go to court- they face their own procedures/investigations/appraisals.


  139. Ron,
    Sorry not sure what this life history has to do with anything.

    If someone is caught drink driving, whether or not they harm someone, they should be charged.

    And a policeman doing it, due to the shame and publicity, would likely suffer a judges wrath- as well as from his colleagues.

    If there has been no charge thus far it suggests lack of evidence or some mitigation. The idea of something like this being 'swept under the carpet' in this day and age is implausible.

    I recall 2 years ago a cop being convicted of killing a girl whilst speeding in london. I think that the laws are pretty well upheld at the mo- in general.

    No doubt we will be hearing from you soon on the matter though....


  140. Jess a final word here - the police are not "officers" they are not Lieutenants in the army, or equivalent in Navy/Air Force. As to drink driving Google "Joe Poulton". Plod are corrupt, mendacious and evil.

  141. Learned Council23 August, 2012 14:24

    Broxted - the police have a unique employment position in this country. They are Officers of the Crown not employees. Winsor is hoping to change that.
    So they are Officers. Get over it and try and type something sensible.

    Jodie McIntyre; immature idiot fighting his perceived police state is a joke that only a complete cretin would support.

  142. Ron
    I googled Joe Poulton and I only got references to your site or your posts.

    I found a Jo Poulton- she was a victim of drink driving.

  143. Jess I suggest you read "The Untouchables", look for D***k H****m a disgraced ex Met joker who failed his Sergeants exam.

  144. Yes, it is a bit of a problem not finding this poor girl's body sooner than 8 days later. Especially as the loft was searched on the 5th I think. For those paying attention 8 days is one week and one day. That is a fact. Not speculation. It is also fact that the house where the body was found was directly south of the Olympic Stadium. It is also fact that the 3rd of August is day number 216. What are the factors of 216? ?x?x? From the 3rd August to the 12th August (closing ceremony of Olympics) is nine days = ?+?+?. Done your maths yet? This is all fact and not speculation.
    It will be very interesting to see what the accused has to say at the trial but whatever the verdict the above remains fact. Perhaps we should all look a bit closer at the facts than what we are being told by the media.
    For instance, let us look at the day, supposedly, the two girls in Soham, Cambridgeshire were murdered. Yes, August 4th, day # 216, almost exactly 10 years ago to the day number.

  145. Also, on 4/8/2002 it was the closing ceremony of the Manchester Commonwealth Games.

    The distance between both murders in kilometres = 111.

  146. The "thinking policeman"? An "armchair philosopher"? No, neither of these things. Instead, our "thinking policeman" is a sub-Daily Mail parasite. Just knowing that idiots like this are roaming the streets with the power to arrest is shocking. I suppose, dear policeman, that you go about your business pretending even to yourself that you are a neutral upholder of the law. And yet you have clearly already found a whole class of society guilty of murder! There is no such thing as a thinking policeman, unfortunately.

  147. I see the point here but really?!! What a load of bull!

    Victim of the underclass? I think It's more a case of victim of MENTAL HEALTH. Someone in her family killed her, hid her body and pretended they was victims themselfs, this poor child died because she was with mentally I'll psychopaths or other mentally I'll conditions or even because of drugs.

    People assume crime is higher from the underprivileged. I wonder how many wealthy people commit fraud, tax evasion, how much molesation goes on in the homes of the wealthy and poor.

    As for drugs...the rich can afford it, the "underclass" cannot. Both classes are drinking and taking drugs, one can cover it up with fancy dinner dates or a nice bottle of red with a meal while the other looks like an obvious addict.

    To say that she died because of the class of her family, I think is a very unfair, even disgusting statement to make. It doesn't matter where you are from, how rich or poor you are, murder is not something just anyone can commit and murder of a child!

  148. Does anyone else not think it weird that Tia's mum refused to do the police appeal, never came out and did a search along with the rest of the community and never showed her face apart from twice during the whole week, yet she can sell her story to the national newspapers !!!